Rogers, Hayden Claim Release Of CIA Torture Report Will Be The Tipping Point For Enemies Of The US

from the you-know,-rather-than-everything-else-we've-done-to-piss-them-off dept

The NSA’s many, many surveillance programs. The TSA’s security theater. “See something, say something.” The DHS and its “Fusion Centers,” in which First Amendment-protected activity is viewed as inherently suspicious. The distribution of armored vehicles and high-powered weapons to law enforcement agencies. The FBI’s constantly expanding investigative scope and powers. The NYPD’s “Demographics Unit.” These are all things we do because of terrorism.

Those who believe the threat of terrorism can justify nearly anything are now claiming the threat of terrorism justifies NOT doing something. Daniel Drezner rounds up quotes from current and former officials who believe that the safety of our nation now hinges on not releasing the long-delayed “Torture Report.” Joining John Kerry in his statement that the release could have negative effects on “foreign policy” are a host of familiar names, starting with House Intelligence Committee head Mike Rogers.

“I think this is a terrible idea,” Rogers said. “Our foreign partners are telling us this will cause violence and deaths. . . . Foreign leaders have approached the government and said, ‘You do this, this will cause violence and deaths.’ Our own intelligence community has assessed that this will cause violence and deaths.”

Michael Hayden, former director of the CIA, echoes Rogers’ concerns.

“…[T]his will be used by our enemies to motivate people to attack Americans and American facilities overseas.”

As Drezner points out, the narrative these men are pushing makes no sense. According to Hayden, Rogers and (to a lesser extent) Kerry, the release of this report will be the tipping point for our enemies, rather than two lengthy, unending military efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan… or years of drone strikes… the United States’ constant support of Israel… the revelations of torture occurring at Abu Ghraib…

According to this narrative, terrorists will be more outraged by a damning Senate report than by the previous decade-plus of actions in response to the 9/11 attacks.

I’m sorry, but this is just nuts. There is no shortage of US foreign policy actions and inactions in the region to inflame enemies. The Senate report is small potatoes compared to that.

The release of the report could actually be a net win for the US. Its reputation has taken several hits over the past year, and exposing its flaws to the world — in hopes of preventing this behavior from repeating itself — will show our allies, and our enemies, that the nation is stronger than its weakest moments. Delaying the release of the report, or rendering it meaningless via over-redaction, won’t send the same message. Instead, it will confirm our enemies’ (and allies’) worst suspicions: that the US government cares more about maintaining a facade than actually making an effort to rebuild its damaged reputation. Doing what Kerry, Rogers and Hayden suggest — bury the report until whenever (and at what point will we not have enemies?) — could actually provide more motivation to terrorists than being open, honest and contrite about the CIA’s actions.

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Comments on “Rogers, Hayden Claim Release Of CIA Torture Report Will Be The Tipping Point For Enemies Of The US”

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87 Comments
John Fendersonsays:

The parallel with Snowden

Once again, we’re being told that reporting the abuses of the US government is what causes harm. Not a single thought is given to the fact that it’s the existence of the abuses that are causing the harm, and to blame the harm on disclosure is very much just shooting the messenger.

Hey Rogers and Hayden: if you’re so worried about blowback, then why are you not so worried about the things that actually cause the blowback?

Anonymous Herosays:

“I think this is a terrible idea,” Rogers said. “Our foreign partners are telling us this will cause violence and deaths. . . . Foreign leaders have approached the government and said, ‘You do this, this will cause violence and deaths.’ Our own intelligence community has assessed that this will cause violence and deaths.”

It may cause violence and deaths, but at least it won’t cause torture.

Anonymous Anonymous Cowardsays:

Reasons not to torture!

It does not work.
If you do it to your enemies, then they will do it to you.
It hurts.
It’s messy.
It needs to be hidden.
It cannot be hidden.
It will come back to bite you as above, and then years later when the people you work for (not your bosses, your employers, you know, the taxpayers) find out about it.
Then, knowing all of that, coming up with excuses to do it, and then more excuses to hide it, and then more excuses to excuse the perpetrators, and then excuses for your excuses (no one ever said government employees had imagination).

Makes one really wonder what they thought the original upside was.

Anonymoussays:

Re: Reasons not to torture!

I am against torture..

But this line is bullshit!

“If you do it to your enemies, then they will do it to you.”

People that are okay with torture are going to torture your ass regardless of whether or not you torture them. America has a bad habit of “reasoning” this shit away regardless of which side you are on… its the same damn logic process that says abortion is okay! Fucked up Logic!

Left or Right… there is lot of cognitive dissonance to go around!

That Anonymous Cowardsays:

Because admitting how badly we screwed this all up, will totally make them want to bomb & murder us more.

They are already committed to our destruction without this report, filling in the blanks with their own imaginings… so the facts are so horrible they will hate us more?

Perhaps saving face is the real motivation behind trying to stop this. That the American public will see what was done in their names and rightfully ask which assholes approved this and where do I sign to remove them from power.

Anonymoussays:

“I think this is a terrible idea,” Rogers said. “Our foreign partners are telling us this will cause violence and deaths. . . . Foreign leaders have approached the government and said, ‘You do this, this will cause violence and deaths.’ Our own intelligence community has assessed that this will cause violence and deaths.”

You know what would’ve prevented this altogether?
Not torturing people in the first place.

Ooops. My bad – I meant not using “enhanced interrogation techniques.”

TruthHurtssays:

CIA / NSA and foreign intelligence = a bunch of morons...

Releasing this report will not CAUSE anything.

It’s the fact that you idiots committed war crimes to begin with that will cause deaths and mayhem.

Everyone involved with these war crimes should be shot so that the rest of us can live knowing these criminals (who are no better than the Nazis were during WWII) are dead and gone.

Chris Brandsays:

This actually tells you what the government has planned

If you were to release the report and simultaneously charge the various high-ups who actually instigated the torture program, you’d show the world that you actually know you made a mistake, have learned from it, and won’t do it again. That would be celebrated by those same people.

The fact that your government is scared of people’s reaction to the report shows that they have no intention of acting on it.

Coyne Tibbetssays:

Has the right of it

You know, I think he has the right of it. If we publish this, our enemies will all shout in unison, “See?! We knew you were kidding when you said torture was bad!!”

Realistically, this argument is getting sillier and sillier. All they’re doing now is stretching it day by day, trying to wear out the people who want it published. They have an infinite list of excuses they will drag out one-by-one, forever.

I still will be surprised if it is ever published in a usable form.

tqksays:

Re: Has the right of it

I still will be surprised if it is ever published in a usable form.

The really wierd thing about this? This is just the for public viewing sanitized version of the real, ten times longer, report. Yet that level of obfuscation isn’t enough for them.

I’m thinking Nuremburg level stuff now, and they’re making it worse with their every word. I’m feeling very sorry for the USA public right now. What a dark chapter those bastards led you into.

Anonymoussays:

Everyone knows what these three lettered agencies are doing, But somehow these guys are afraid of cementing the facts living up to the mistakes they’ve made ,it’s like they’re more afraid of the lawyers , because concrete evidence can bury them , actually seems they don’t care if we know, because without proof or a paper trail nothing can be done to them they continue to walk around like proud peacocks spewing lies and propaganda.

art guerrillasays:

Re: Re: WOW must be some real bad crap you yankies did

no need: OUR body count is actually higher than hitler’s at this point…
unfortunately, too many sheeple do NOT know the sordid side of our continuing oppression of brown people the world over, WE -you know, ‘the good guys’- are directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths of MANY MILLIONS…
hell, that’s just in the phillipines/indonesia…

tqksays:

Re: Re: WOW must be some real bad crap you yankies did

Well as far as I know we aren’t as bad as Hitler.

They’re going all the way to the wall to keep you believing that. From that, I have to assume it’s even worse than Hitler.

We’ll have to retire Godwin. Apparently, we have a new low now: 21st Century USA.

I offer my deepest condolences. This is a very sad day.

tqksays:

Re: Re: WOW must be some real bad crap you yankies did

Other nations that are much older than ours invented this (not just nazis and the ss) …

Very true. Many royal palace dungeons spent centuries refining the craft of torture. Waterboarding is fairly benign by those standards.

There was a US president once who is now revered partly because he stepped up and took responsibility for his actions: “I cannot tell a lie …”. It’s possibly apochryphal, but I guess we can retire that completely now.

mcinsandsays:

follow-up is critical

If we release the report and do nothing, we do make ourselves more of a target. However, if we want to actually be ‘the good guys’ and build trust, we can make a good start by releasing the report and prosecute those that were responsible for any abuses. That is how we establish that we mean what we say when we support our Constitution and oppose human rights violations.

Anonymous Anonymous Cowardsays:

Re: Re: follow-up is critical

Another zip-code? It is more likely that it will be the World Court that does something about this. Our politicians have no moral compass that will let them do the right thing, and voting will have no impact as a big part of the issue is bureaucrats, not elected persons.

There is a big difference in doing things right vs doing the right thing, at times.

Davidsays:

Re: follow-up is critical

However, if we want to actually be ‘the good guys’ and build trust, we can make a good start by releasing the report and prosecute those that were responsible for any abuses. That is how we establish that we mean what we say when we support our Constitution and oppose human rights violations.

Prosecute our patriotic heroic Dr Mengeles? You must be kidding. We already established that this is not in the national interest, that’s why we do not even want pseudonyms in the published report that would make it possible to figure out who the real fiends of humanity are in our ranks.

We promised them carte blanche for crimes against humanity, and we imprudently made people frown on the Nuremberg defense: if we had not just pulled over Wernher von Braun for NASA but also Freisler for the Department of Justice, Mengele for the CIA and G?ring as Secretary of State, we would have beat the Russians to the first torture camp on the moon.

A small clubbing for a blackie, but a large thrashing for the sake of white superiority.

Uh yeah. Follow-up is critical. Sorry for getting carried away. It’s hard not to get excited when one sees the U.S. rising to its potential.

Davidsays:

What's the point?

“I think this is a terrible idea,” Rogers said. “Our foreign partners are telling us this will cause violence and deaths.

Does he insinuate that the U.S. is supposed to be against violence and deaths now? That’s good since we can reduce a lot of military spending then. People will be happy to hear that Rogers stands for scrapping all predator drones and telling the CIA that violence and deaths (like those caused by torture or assassination programs) are a bad idea and they are not heros and patriots for committing them.

If the U.S. is prepared to abolish all violence and death originating from its soil, not getting to see the torture report seems like a good deal.

I somehow doubt that this is Roger’s plan, though. My suspicion is that he is making a pitch for the Nobel prize in hypocrisy, a category that really deserves to get a prize of its own as it is watering down the others more and more.

TruthHurtssays:

FBI can capture more fake terrorists...

They can look for some mentally unstable people, suggest to them that perhaps they should kill Rogers and Hayden, develop the entire plan, provide the weapons and whatnot, then, when they are just about to implement, swoop down in the nick of time and arrest the mentally handicapped victims of the FBI’s malignant campaign.

Or, maybe, just maybe, they could arrest the real traitors that committed the heinous war crimes, those that new about them and didn’t act on that knowledge, and those that heard about the acts and didn’t act on it.

Yes, I admit that might mean they have to arrest half the U.S. Government and 99% of the alphabet soup agencies in this Country, but then the criminals would be gone and our Country would be safer.

Jeff_Davissays:

Re: FBI can capture more fake terrorists...

I’m a bit disappointed in most of the commentators. With the exception of TruthHurts, they have all been side-tracked — as intended — by the Hayden/Rogers remarks. Side-tracked into explaining the seemingly obvious illogic of those remarks. Of course, those remarks are stupid. Stupid on their face, …..but SMART in their intent, which TruthHurts jumps past to get to the heart of the matter: HAYDEN AND ROGERS ARE AMONG “THE PRINCIPALS”, THE CENTRAL, CURRENTLY UNINDICTED, *****USG***** WAR CRIMINALS DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE US WAR CRIMES OF THE LAST 13 YEARS, AND SHOULD BE IN CUSTODY AND AWAITING TRIAL FOR THOSE CRIMES.

This crap about bad juju from the release of the torture report is just the smokescreen by Hayden/Rogers et al to avoid a report that exposes their criminality to the light of day.

Anonymoussays:

the question would be: are Americans willing to turn their country into a place where they have no rights and only those at the op have all the power and privledges, and in return they will be safe from everything be it physical, mental or psychological pain as their every action will be rigidly controlled.

Would Americans rather live in a dictatorship tyranny or a free country.

I prefer being free even if that means free to starve

Anonymoussays:

If that's the case...

“…[T]his will be used by our enemies to motivate people to attack Americans and American facilities overseas.”

Then we deserve what we receive – and the blood is on the hands of those who allowed the torture to occur in the first place.

How can this “logic” be so difficult to understand – clearly the people making these statements failed at basic logic.

Anonymoussays:

Was it at any time ever considered that this torture was a violation of the Geneva Convention? Did it ever occur that this is the same thing that the Nazi’s were gone after under War Crimes? This government has allowed the violation of treaties we were signatures to saying we would not do this and yet it was done.

Plain and simple we have war criminals in our government, now scared that their actions will be shown to be what they are and they could and should be called up before World Court to be held accountable for those crimes.

No damn wonder we’re making more enemies. You have innocents locked up in Guantanamo, because you offered a bounty but did not bother to check that those being turned in were actually guilty of something. We’ve sent hellfire missiles into wedding parties and funerals but not killed the target, instead killing a lot of innocents, and then claimed they were terrorists. Nothing like bolstering the enemy resistance and encouraging people to join because their innocent relatives just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is still going on. You sure aren’t winning hearts and minds over mistargetting just who should be killed.

And then come up with a BS excuse that it would be a tipping point? Please get some better material writers because those you are using for media points are failing seriously. This isn’t even decent propaganda when any average citizen can see just what BS this is.

I am sadly disillusioned over the direction the US government has taken. This country I don’t recognize as the country I put my ass on the line for in the military. You and all your cohorts have lost the support of the American people and until you make an accounting of it, it is not going to get better or magically change.

Anonymoussays:

Re:

you forgot to mention the double tap policy of drone missiles targeting first responders to missile attacks. Purposely targeting police, medical emergency staff, firemen etc. Just because they are trying to help out victims of drone strikes they must be terrorists.

meanwhile the real terrorists are those controlling the drones

John Fendersonsays:

Re: Sad Thing

Not probably. Absolutely. When Bush effectively legalized torture, tons of people spoke loudly and clearly that it’s a bad thing to do not only because it’s one of the most immoral things you can do, but because it’s a terrible strategy: it gains you nothing but gives your enemies something to rally about.

gorehoundsays:

Remember when these lying sack of shit Politicians argued over whether waterboarding was torture.
They truly pissed me off greatly.My Dad was a member of the Jewish Underground in Budapest and he is a Holocaust Survivor.
He was tortured by the Hungarian Nyilas and German Gestapo and one of the things done was to make pretend they were drowning him AKA WATERBOARDING.

http://www.bigmeathammer.com/aushwitz.htm
Kratz Family Holocaust Memorial of Carpathian and N.Romanian Jewry.

Anonymoussays:

Applying this logic to criminal cases...

[ In chambers, without the jury present. ]
Defence lawyer: “Your Honour, I move to suppress all evidence the prosecutor intends to offer in this case.”
Judge: “Was the evidence obtained unlawfully?”
Defence: “No, your honour.”
Judge: “Is the evidence irrelevant to the case?”
Defence: “No, your honour.”
Judge: “Is the evidence fabricated or in any way misleading?”
Defence: “No, your honour.”
Judge: “Then why should it be suppressed?”
Defence: “It would give the jury the impression my client is guilty, your honour.”
Judge: “You want me to suppress truthful and accurate evidence that your client is guilty, because it would lead the jury to believe that your client is guilty?”
Defence: “Yes, your honour. My client is absolutely guilty of all charges filed, and is concerned that disclosing detailed evidence of his guilt may lead the jury to see him in an unfavourable light.”

Uriel-238says:

These people that tell us that the report needs to be concealed...

Are they really meaning to imply that what heinous thing that has been done (in this case torture) is okay so long as the breadth of the program remains obfuscated?

Is there any other reason for which we as a nation should not show outright contrition? We’re talk about the torture program of the United States government and military.

The enemies of the US have good cause to fear and hate us and wish upon us ill will. And the allies of the US and neutral parties have good cause to distance from the US and become its enemies.

We have become the Galactic Empire. We have become Mordor. Opacity at this hour only allows everyone to assume the worst, that it is as many unforeseen revelations, that acts done in the name of the United States have been worse than we imagined they could be.

Rapnelsays:

Re: Re: These people that tell us that the report needs to be concealed...

The very instant at which it was decided that terrorism will be countered with military might, technology and life was the same instant that overt actions to extend empire became a trite relic of history.

The very instant that the leader of the free world authorized military technology to be deliberately and directly deployed against all civilian targets was the very same instant that the free world became another trite relic of history.

Welcome to the New World Order covertly brought to you by: ????

Votresays:

What’s going to be even funnier is the US response to the warrants that are bound to be issued by the International Court for war crimes and “crimes against humanity.”

At the very least they’ll ruin Dick Cheney’s whole day. And that can only be a good thing even though nobody of any importance will ever stand trial as long as the US government can do anything to prevent it.

And it can, unfortunately.

Anonymoussays:

Re:

Careful when making such unqualified statements. Even a nanosecond of consideration can give rise to scenarios where such interrogation methods become almost a moral imperative. Sometimes in life you hold your nose and do what you know is not kosher because the failure to secure time critical information is not an option for persons with a conscience and strong sense of humanity.

Anonymoussays:

Re: Re:

A conscience and strong sense of humanity should go along with a sense of sacrifice. Very specific, rare, and isolated situations might very well put a person in a position of using torture as the last available method of preventing a tragedy.

In these cases the torturer isn’t just sacrificing his subject’s humanity or rights, he’s also sacrificing his own. Did the torture miraculously work and save lives? Even if it did, the act still needs to be condemned, and those involved still must be punished.

If you’re going to take a bullet to protect a friend, you don’t get to tell the world to stop while you look for a bullet-proof vest.

Anonymous Anonymous Cowardsays:

Re: Re: Re:

Exactly.

If exigent circumstances demand immediate action and the situation commanders first option is torture (and it is known that that does not work) then that situation commander is either morally bankrupt or incompetently trained.

One would hope that the actually incompetent never get promoted to the position of situation commander. Yet reality bites.

This is where I usually get into the argument about The Peter Principle (“managers rise to the level of their incompetence.”), which I despise simply because it is managements fault that people get promoted, unless those people start their own businesses.

In the case of government, we tend to blame the voters, when it is really the details of the system that are at fault. Specifically but not limited to: money in politics and the concept of political parties. Both should be removed.

JonRobsays:

For our own good

Reasons not to release:

They’ve turned it into a script and can’t disclose the contents until Rob Zombie agrees to direct it as the third film in the House of 1,000 Corpses franchise. Negotiations might have stalled because Rob needed a vomit bucket during the initial reading.

Contains missing pages from the Necronomicon and they had to give it to Bruce Campbell for safekeeping.

If we knew the kinds of acts they performed in our names around the world, they would be forced to kill a great many of us to quell the revolution.

Davidsays:

Re:

The government is more afraid of the consequences the report might have in the U.S. rather than abroad. If anything like an impression of accountability grew from it, however mistaken, it could seriously impact the attractivity of government jobs for psychopaths, sadists and mercenary killers and consequently affect the government’s ability to recruit the top crop of syndicated criminals.

Uriel-238says:

We've justified the nutjobs

At the point that we decided that it’s okay to torture some folks, we became exactly the sort of enemy at which you throw your nutjob suicide units.

The Houri-craving nutjobs are incidental. They’re units of desperation in an asymmetrical theater. And whatever notions that they are told of the US to indoctrinate them for battle, the things we actually do are much, much worse.

The US has actually become the demon they are sent to fight.

Paul Keatingsays:

What planet do they live on????

two Comments:

“Our foreign partners are telling us this will cause violence and deaths. . . . Foreign leaders have approached the government and said, ‘You do this, this will cause violence and deaths.’ Our own intelligence community has assessed that this will cause violence and deaths.”

There is no shortage of US foreign policy actions and inactions in the region to inflame enemies.

WHERE were the brains when the underlying actions were hatched?

In other words, it is not what you did but telling your parents about it that causes the problems? On what planet did these people get their education?

Uriel-238says:

Re: Re: What planet do they live on????

Cardassians at least freely admit and endorse they engage in torture and surveillance and brutality, and believe such things are necessary evils.

The United States still tries to pretend that truth, justice and equality prevail.

Given an option, I’d rather the society that didn’t lie to me, than the one that did.

Mmickksays:

prove its not torture!

I have long held the idea that those so eager to use “enhanced interrogation” methods ought to be willing to prove that it is not torture and is truly an effective tool to trustworthy information by willingly allowing themselves to undergo the process, publicly, for a set period of time. Just a week or maybe a month. And then stick to their claims that this is somehow not inhumane.

John Fendersonsays:

Re: prove its not torture!

“by willingly allowing themselves to undergo the process, publicly, for a set period of time.”

That wouldn’t count at all. A huge part of what makes something torture is that there is no time limit for it and you have to say in whether or not it happens. If those two things are missing, then it’s not a comparable activity.

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