Nintendo Shuts Down Another 'Smash' Tournament Due To Mod Use, With No Piracy As A Concern

from the nintendon't dept

Late last year, we discussed a predictably odd move by Nintendo to shut down a Smash Bros. tournament called The Big House over its use of a mod called “slippi.” Slippi essentially unbreaks the 20 year old game when it comes to competitive online play. Otherwise, the whole thing basically doesn’t work from a online play perspective. And, with all kinds of events going virtual, The Big House attempted to run its tournament virtually, meaning that participants would have to use a digitized version of the game they owned, along with the mod, in order to participate. After it nixed the tourney, Nintendo put out the following statement:

Unfortunately, the upcoming Big House tournament announced plans to host an online tournament for Super Smash Bros. Melee that requires use of illegally copied versions of the game in conjunction with a mod called ‘Slippi’ during their online event. Nintendo therefore contacted the tournament organizers to ask them to stop. They refused, leaving Nintendo no choice but to step in to protect its intellectual property and brands. Nintendo cannot condone or allow piracy of its intellectual property.

Many of us rolled our eyes at the statement. After all, digitizing your own owned game in order to participate in the tournament is not “piracy.” The game was bought and paid for by participants. The use of slippi doesn’t really factor into the equation and, yet, its use seemed to be the deciding factor in the shut down. In other words, the target seemed to be the mod and not piracy.

Well, that appears to be confirmed now that Nintendo has shut down a tournament called “Riptide”, hosted at a waterpark in Ohio in-person, due to its use of a mod called “Project+”.

The inaugural Riptide Smash Bros. event was supposed to happen last year but was postponed due to the pandemic. But 2021 has introduced another hitch. The three-day fighting game extravaganza at the Kalahari Resort in Sandusky, Ohio will now no longer feature Project+, a variant of the popular Project M mod for Smash Bros. Brawl that makes the 2008 Wii game fit for high-level competitive play.

“Riptide was contacted recently by a Nintendo of America, Inc. representative regarding our Project+ events,” the event’s organizers wrote on Twitter last Friday. “As a result of that conversation, there will be no Project+ tournaments or setups at Riptide.”

Note that the event was scheduled to go off on September 10th. Participants are getting refunds for their entry fees, given the last minute cancellation, but not for any money spent on transportation or accommodations needed to attend the event. Flights, hotels, etc. are all going unrefunded. And, understandably, people are pissed.

“Super cool of @NintendoAmerica to cancel an event that’s been planned for months just 2 weeks before it happens!” wrote Melee pro JoSniffy on Twitter. “It’s so considerate to all of the people that bought plane tickets and hotels months ago, which are now useless. Keep up the great work Nintendo!”

Notably, there are zero piracy concerns at play here. The event and mod require disc copies of the game to play. The entire competition was to be conducted in-person, with no online play. Nintendo has made no public statement at the time of this writing as to why the tourney was cancelled, leaving it completely open to confusion and speculation.

“This is unforgivable at this point,” wrote past Melee champion Hungrybox on Twitter. “There’s no legitimate reason for @Nintendo to do this that doesn’t include a complete disconnect with the current culture of their consumers. Insanity.”

And so the rest of the Riptide event will go on as scheduled, but this one tournament is shut down, leaving participants that paid for accommodations in the lurch. Why?

Control, obviously. With no piracy to be concerned about, all we’re left with is the use of the Project+ mod. Nintendo quite famously hates modding communities and takes every opportunity to retain strict control over how its games are played. Why it wants to go to war with its own fans and customers in this way, meanwhile, has been an open question for years.

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Comments on “Nintendo Shuts Down Another 'Smash' Tournament Due To Mod Use, With No Piracy As A Concern”

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129 Comments
sumgaisays:

Wrong question

Why it wants to go to war with its own fans and customers in this way, meanwhile, has been an open question for years.

The question should be: Why would anyone give money to Nintendo in the first place, knowing that the company will screw the legal purchaser, and continue to screw them over and over again. And they won’t even kiss the customer first….

PaulTsays:

Re: Re: Wrong question

Because, as has to be brought up time and time again when this same question is brought up – the average consumer neither knows or cares about any of the issues being raised. A parent buying Smash Bros and Zelda for their kids doesn’t give 2 shits about the way modders and tournaments are treated. These actions don’t affect them in the slightest.

When asking these questions, you don’t ask "why are people putting up with this stuff". The question is "does the average consumer know about this?". If you venture outside of tech blogs, the answer is usually "no".

PaulTsays:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wrong question

Mainstream consumers generally won’t care about something unless it directly affects them, especially if they’re happy with the end product. Videogame customers are no different from fashion, fast food, or any other customer in this regard.

Then, if most customers don’t know or care about a particular issue, you’re not going to see any protest in the marketplace. Unless Nintendo screw up as much as EA did with Star Wars Battlefront 2, you’re not going to see a similar outcry, and their track record suggests that they know which markets to not offend in this regard.

sumgaisays:

Wrong question

Why it wants to go to war with its own fans and customers in this way, meanwhile, has been an open question for years.

The question should be: Why would anyone give money to Nintendo in the first place, knowing that the company will screw the legal purchaser, and continue to screw them over and over again. And they won’t even kiss the customer first….

Anonymoussays:

Nintendo: "No fun allowed unless it’s in the proper way!"

Nintendo: Good at making games, shit at interacting with it’s fans in any way that DOESN’T involve a C&D.

And yet you’ll likely see die-hard fans stepping up to defend Nintendo’s actions here like Nintendo can do no wrong. Let’s be clear: Yes, Nintendo has the legal right to do this but just because they can, doesn’t mean they should. They have gone after fans with a zeal that even MPAA would probably say is too overzealous.

Anonymoussays:

Re: Re:

Let’s be clear: Yes, Nintendo has the legal right to do this but just because they can, doesn’t mean they should.

The article seems to suggest copyright infringment is not the reason given. If they are not pursing this action under copyright, what does give them the right?

IANAL, but as far as I know: moding may fall under copyright… but outside of copyright they have essentially no authority. As far as I know the only "tool" left would be:
Trademark, which shouldn’t apply here (and doesn’t really cover events… worst case would be a name change or something).
Patents, but those should be exhausted at disk/console sale time. Finally EULA… but I seem to recall there being no test cases about the enforceability of them, especially since their text is only available after a purchase.

Anyhow: if copyright is not being invoked here, it isn’t at all clear that Nintendo has the right.

tpsays:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

if copyright is not being invoked here, it isn’t at all clear that Nintendo has the right.

If nintendo is creating a product, they can freely decide what features are available in the product. Usage of the product outside of the designed features is illegal, i.e. misuse of the offered services. It’s like using crowbar to rob a jewelry store — the crowbar manufacturer is legally required to prevent that kind of misuses, if the technology allows the blocking. Sadly smart crowbars are significantly more expensive than ordinary ones.

But since nintendo can choose which features to include to their product, they should actually actively prevent those broken use cases. It’s failure of nintendo that they haven’t created such software that actively prevents the misuses. When the software doesn’t do good enough job preventing misuses, then they have no other choice than cease & desist.

So news items like this are failures in two different ways: 1) the tournament organizers are using nintendo product commercially in ways which weren’t in nintendo’s original feature sets 2) nintendo failed to prevent that use case in their software.

Anonymoussays:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

1) the tournament organizers are using nintendo product commercially in ways which weren’t in nintendo’s original feature sets 2) nintendo failed to prevent that use case in their software.

This argument would have succeeded if not for 1) Nobody paid money to be in the tournament, beyond the money that anyone traveling to said event would have paid anyway, and 2) You’re asking Nintendo to preemptively prevent anyone it might not like from playing its game, so… yeah, let’s use this as another example of you expecting tech to do something it’s not supposed to, in a sad attempt to hawk your own pathetic wares.

Anonymoussays:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

To be honest I’m too lazy to dissect all the crazy here. But I like this response best, so I’ll just go with that.

I’m sure your CPU vendor did not intend their processors to be used to post crazy comments. So I guess the above "tp" post is claiming that to be evidence of a crime.

tpsays:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re: Re: Re: Re:

I’m sure your CPU vendor did not intend their processors to be used to post crazy comments.

Well, the posting of crazy comments is a combination of the following modules:
1) network card
2) keyboard
3) monitors
4) cables
5) cpu
6) power supply
7) electricity
8) internet
9) servers/server farms

Obviously product vendors need to allow all combinations, as long as the products are being used like they were intended to be used. Typing on a keyboard is pretty safe operation. Watching your monitor screen is also very safe. Executing commands on your cpu is safe… Connecting your cables is safe. Trolling on internet is safe, etc… product vendors need to allow all combinations, also from competing products.

tpsays:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re: Re: Re: Re:

companies have the right to assert ?approved? uses for the products they sell

1) it’s illegal to short-circuit or use larger than specified voltage for electronics gadgets
2) it’s illegal to use guns/knives/hammers/crowbars to rob jewelry store
3) it’s illegal to use explosives without explosives -permit
4) it’s illegal to commit copyright infringement for any copyrighted work
5) it’s illegal to park your car to a tram rails
6) it’s illegal to make your workers work overtime without overtime compensation
7) it’s illegal to steal a car
8) it’s illegal to burn someone’s house
9) it’s illegal to do tax fraud
10) it’s illegal to sell a ponzi scheme
11) it’s illegal to murder people with knives/guns/poison/cars/etc..

Every one of these are a product misuse. Some company manufactured a product that is being misused in the illegal operation. Companies have right and responsibility to prevent these misuses (and other misuses which I missed).

Stephen T. Stonesays:

Re: Re: Re:3

Every one of these are a product misuse.

  1. nope
  2. robbery is illegal; whether you use a weapon to commit the act is irrelevant
  3. less a ?product misuse? and more a bureaucratic mistake
  4. that?s not a ?product misuse?, that?s just a law being broken??and Fair Use is still a thing despite all your wishing and begging and praying to your god
  5. not really a product misuse
  6. holy shit are you referring to people as ?products?, what the fuck is wrong with you
  7. not a product misuse, just a crime
  8. not a product misuse, just a crime
  9. not a product misuse, just a crime
  10. not a product misuse, just a crime
  11. this is the one instance in which yes, you?ve hit upon an actual product misuse??but even then, you?re still screwed, because guns are made for the purpose of hurting/killing other living beings and murder isn?t illegal if it?s done in defense of self or others

How are you so bad at this.

Anonymoussays:

Re: Re: Re:4 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

You’re insane as always, but I’d love to see your suggestions as to how a knife manufacturer can prevent murder.

Hey, there are at least two other possibilities: They could be a lier, or an idiot as well (or maybe even all three).

Although tp definetly doesn’t come out of this looking better than shit.

PaulTsays:

Re: Re: Re:3 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

Hey, I tell you what, instead of whining about third-rate incomprehensible software for which you don’t even have a defined use case is failing in the market, why don’t you design this? The market is wide open for anyone who can make a piece of metal magically know what it’s being used for. You’d not only be rich, there’s probably a Nobel Prize in there for you as well. For for it!

tpsays:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re: Re: Re: Re:

explain how what you said couldn’t be used by Toyota to make me buy Goodyear tires (and only Goodyear tires)

Apple is building all kinds of lightning ports to make sure users do not connect the device to gadgets that are not approved by the apple headquarters. Product vendors who want to support lightning ports, need to pay ransom money to apple to get permission to use the connectors. Users have no other choice than buy compatibile devices with lightning port included.

So yes, it can be used by Toyota to make you buy goodyear tires. Just ensure that the connector is not compatible with standard tires.

Anonymoussays:

Re: Re: Re:3 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

Users have no other choice than buy compatibile devices with lightning port included.

USB-to-Lightning converters exist. Apple can suck it.

So yes, it can be used by Toyota to make you buy goodyear tires. Just ensure that the connector is not compatible with standard tires.

If I buy the car, I can remove their incompatible connector and put a standard tire/wheel on the car. And there’s nothing Toyota can do about it.

PaulTsays:

Re: Re: Re:3 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

"Users have no other choice than buy compatibile devices with lightning port included."

Well, unless you ignore the fact that adapters exist. Also, the choice you always forget people have – not to buy from Apple and use a competitor that fits their needs better. Offering a product for sale does not mean people have to buy it.

"Just ensure that the connector is not compatible with standard tires"

…and watch as that product fails in the market, while presumably the automotive version of tp whines that people won’t buy his deliberately broken and hazardous product.

tpsays:

Re: Re: Re:6 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

No, because it was added to an already existing and popular product line with a large user base.

Then it’s not the "non-compatible tire connector" that causes products to fail in the market. Maybe the failure is all about "not having already existing and popular product line"?

Rockysays:

Re: Re: Re:7 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

Then it’s not the "non-compatible tire connector" that causes products to fail in the market. Maybe the failure is all about "not having already existing and popular product line"?

If don’t have a popular product line, that in itself is a form of failure. Adding proprietary features to that is just doubling down on failure. If you have a popular product with a huge amount of customers, proprietary connectors isn’t that big of a problem, but if your product has a small user base, proprietary connectors can be why the product fails in the end unless the product have something else going for it so customers are willing to put up with it.

This is one of the most basic things (together with pricing it right) you need to know when producing and marketing a product, understanding that the acceptance of some features that are proprietary hinges on how large your customer base is and their willingness to accept the product’s proprietary features because other features outweigh that.

The amount of people who would willingly accept that their car needs proprietary tires is miniscule. There are of course people who will accept this, but that’s because they happen to own a supercar like a Koenigsegg or McLaren for example, but if someone wants to buy a Golf to commute with and they find out they are forced to buy the tires from WV/Audi at an inflated price (pun not intended) it’s very likely that the sales for that car model would tank for the simple reason that people have an expectation that tires are something you can buy anywhere.

tpsays:

Re: Re: Re:5 Re:

> Offering a product for sale does not mean people have to buy it.

Don?t worry, tp knows all about that. ????

It also works the other way around. If you don’t offer a product for sale, it’s impossible to get money from your customers. Offering it for sale is precondition for your ability to receive money for it.

So why are you not offering products for sale?

Stephen T. Stonesays:

Re: Re: Re:6

why are you not offering products for sale?

Maybe I am, maybe I?m not. That makes no difference as to whether your particular offering is a failure.

And given everything you?ve told us about yourself over the years, Meshpage is most certainly a failure of both technology and marketing. I mean, who the fuck would ever want to use a piece of software that does only and specifically what its designer wants people to do with it, is upkept by someone who is actively hostile towards the rest of humanity, will never be changed by that developer based on genuine good-faith criticism, and has no clear superiority in either features or output when compared to other contemporary software of its kind?

Your software is less than a joke, because at least jokes are funny. You?ve spent years dedicating yourself to the Sisyphean task of making something that can outperform Blender??a task which, as the adjective implies, you have continuously failed at achieving in every aspect except the one you claim is the absolute most important. Literally no one would ever want to use software that is so limiting in its functionality that even a single accidental instance of copyright infringement would be enough to make that software??and its developer??treat a user like a convicted criminal who deserves no less than life in prison for daring to violate the Holy Sacred Testament that is copyright law. And that?s even before we get to how every other piece of software in that field outperforms yours in every way that matters (to other people [who aren?t you {thank God}]).

I wouldn?t be this harsh on you if you treated Meshpage like a hobby or side project??a curiosity to be played with every once in a while. But you act like it will sincerely and seriously change the world of 3D rendering software forever if you could just make people use it. Your hubris, your ego, your religious worship of copyright, and your outright contempt for every one of the seven billion people on this planet who aren?t you compel me to do this shit. Trust me, I don?t want to be doing this shit. But since I am?

Meshpage is a failure; always has been, always will be. You may not be as big a joke as I am, but you?re definitely close to it. Your fervent devotion to copyright as a law above both Man?s Law and God?s Law is disturbing even to someone who regularly witnesses the inanity of copyright maximalists. Please go outside and touch grass for about a year??and trust me when I say that if I need to do that (and I do!), you need it worse.

PaulTsays:

Re: Re: Re:7 Re:

"the Sisyphean task of making something that can outperform Blender"

Unaided, it should be mentioned. He apparently had some collaborators at some point but closed his Github repo and whined that open source software can’t work. I presume this is because people tried injecting reality into the project.

It should also be mentioned that competing with Blender is only one of the claims he’s made. He’s also stated that it’s intended for children to learn with (a noble goal, but they wouldn’t learn any transferrable skills with that software), and most recently that it’s intended to display icons on a phone. He’s also had to provide instructions on how to use it here, since it wasn’t clear that the software actually allows you to interact with the image rather than it simply being an 1993 Amiga-level static animation on his website.

If a developer not only shuts out all collaboration but can’t even decide the actual purpose for which it is to be used, it’s unlikely that the software will be useful. Even if he did find a niche where it was an invaluable tool – would you want to use something that is so poorly supported?

"I wouldn?t be this harsh on you if you treated Meshpage like a hobby or side project??a curiosity to be played with every once in a while. But you act like it will sincerely and seriously change the world of 3D rendering software forever if you could just make people use it."

That’s not even the problem. It’s the fact that he thinks that because he failed to get any users with an incomprehensible bus advert displayed to people who wouldn’t be interested if they could understand the message, that means that the entire concept of creativity needs to be dismantled and he needs huge amounts of free money because he got some code to compile correctly.

Anonymoussays:

Re: Re: Re:9 Re: Re: Re:

The creativity isn’t useful if you cannot get the resulting code to compile.

And if your resulting code can’t even compile then what the fuck do you want people to pay you money for? For an inferior product that can’t even compete with free?

I’ll say maybe the one good thing you have going for you is that you regularly eviscerate your own arguments and demands simply by exhaling, so thanks once again that Meshpage isn’t worth the electricity you spent typing it all out.

Oninoshikosays:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

While these types of things are always on a case-by-case basis, so this is not legal advice (blah blah blah), it seems pretty clear to my this is a derivative work. One of the exclusive copyrights offered to creators of original works is, generally, the right to make derivatives.

The authority is, as always the law, in this case 17 USC 106: "Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:… …to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;"

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106

While it’s not PIRACY as we normally think of it, it’s still a copyright violation.

Anonymoussays:

Nintendo: "No fun allowed unless it’s in the proper way!"

Nintendo: Good at making games, shit at interacting with it’s fans in any way that DOESN’T involve a C&D.

And yet you’ll likely see die-hard fans stepping up to defend Nintendo’s actions here like Nintendo can do no wrong. Let’s be clear: Yes, Nintendo has the legal right to do this but just because they can, doesn’t mean they should. They have gone after fans with a zeal that even MPAA would probably say is too overzealous.

Anonymoussays:

Nintendo does things no one else does like dmca video game play throughs, yes they have the right to stop tournaments but doing it 2 weeks before the tournament happens, that’s really inconsiderate of people who book flights and hotel rooms. Nintendo has great sales cos it makes family friendly games, it sells consoles that are not very expensive. Things like mods of old games are not even known about most game buyers.
The only reason I can think why they do this is the average Nintendo employee is 50 plus and they are afraid of any use of mods as they give more control to the user . It reminds me of the arrogance of the music industry
When they would do things like dmca music blogs that featured links to rap songs

Anonymoussays:

Nintendo does things no one else does like dmca video game play throughs, yes they have the right to stop tournaments but doing it 2 weeks before the tournament happens, that’s really inconsiderate of people who book flights and hotel rooms. Nintendo has great sales cos it makes family friendly games, it sells consoles that are not very expensive. Things like mods of old games are not even known about most game buyers.
The only reason I can think why they do this is the average Nintendo employee is 50 plus and they are afraid of any use of mods as they give more control to the user . It reminds me of the arrogance of the music industry
When they would do things like dmca music blogs that featured links to rap songs

Sabronisays:

‘digitizing your own owned game in order to participate in the tournament is not "piracy."’
Agreed. Downloading an illegal copy and using it to participate is. You won’t acknowledge that it’s possible to use an illegal copy and are playing exactly the same game as Nintendo. They say all non-sanctioned use is illegal, you say all non-sanctioned use is legal. Neither is correct.
Maybe it’s time for a nuanced discussion about this, like you constantly claim we need for section 230?

Anonymoussays:

Re: Re:

‘digitizing your own owned game in order to participate in the tournament is not "piracy."’

Typically software is sold as a license for use and those licenses typically restrict use to the device manufacturer has designed the software to run on.

For example, If you rip a NES game, so long as you own the original and only run it on an NES, your golden. However, if you instead run it on your PC with an emulator, you’ve broken the licensing agreement and one could argue that this would be piracy.

Sabronisays:

‘digitizing your own owned game in order to participate in the tournament is not "piracy."’
Agreed. Downloading an illegal copy and using it to participate is. You won’t acknowledge that it’s possible to use an illegal copy and are playing exactly the same game as Nintendo. They say all non-sanctioned use is illegal, you say all non-sanctioned use is legal. Neither is correct.
Maybe it’s time for a nuanced discussion about this, like you constantly claim we need for section 230?

Anonymoussays:

Considering they’ve done far, far worse in the 1980s…

I can’t even be surprised at all.

Reminder that Nintendo once had control over how many consoles stores could have. And would freeze a store out of having stock for no good reason at all. And have used said control to maintain a monopoly. In America and Japan.

Oh, and Nintendo’s overly restrictive monetization in their content creation terms and conditions.

Anonymoussays:

Considering they’ve done far, far worse in the 1980s…

I can’t even be surprised at all.

Reminder that Nintendo once had control over how many consoles stores could have. And would freeze a store out of having stock for no good reason at all. And have used said control to maintain a monopoly. In America and Japan.

Oh, and Nintendo’s overly restrictive monetization in their content creation terms and conditions.

Anonymoussays:

This kind of stupidity going on and on make me often wonder what a digital world without copyrights would be. Like the John Lennon song.. imagine no Big Copyright. How bad would that be? What if tomorrow the government stopped their partnership with the cultural conglomerates oppressing the digital cultural market? Imagine all that cultural expressions freed up and come afront to the stage. What wonderful works surface that this generation would enjoy? But what about the jobs lost… all those people losing their livelihoods, you may say? Well, it is hard for me to sympathize with people whose livelihoods depend on oppressing the little guys. Cry me a river. What if those jobs get replaced by better jobs and who knows? maybe even more jobs would be created that would be lost … after all, that much wealth being wasted on stupid lawyers with their stupidities, those at Nintendo for example, all that wealth has to go somewhere, maybe into more valuable and more socially productive enterprises?
All that allegedly social goods that Big Copyright supposedly give us, is all that backed by empirical studies besides dogma? I wonder.
With all those stories I read from Techdirt over the stupidities and waste Big Copyright creates, I’m thinking, like the chorus, War, what is it good for? … Bug Copyright, what is it good for? Absolutely nothing… at least in anything that really matters.

Anonymoussays:

This kind of stupidity going on and on make me often wonder what a digital world without copyrights would be. Like the John Lennon song.. imagine no Big Copyright. How bad would that be? What if tomorrow the government stopped their partnership with the cultural conglomerates oppressing the digital cultural market? Imagine all that cultural expressions freed up and come afront to the stage. What wonderful works surface that this generation would enjoy? But what about the jobs lost… all those people losing their livelihoods, you may say? Well, it is hard for me to sympathize with people whose livelihoods depend on oppressing the little guys. Cry me a river. What if those jobs get replaced by better jobs and who knows? maybe even more jobs would be created that would be lost … after all, that much wealth being wasted on stupid lawyers with their stupidities, those at Nintendo for example, all that wealth has to go somewhere, maybe into more valuable and more socially productive enterprises?
All that allegedly social goods that Big Copyright supposedly give us, is all that backed by empirical studies besides dogma? I wonder.
With all those stories I read from Techdirt over the stupidities and waste Big Copyright creates, I’m thinking, like the chorus, War, what is it good for? … Bug Copyright, what is it good for? Absolutely nothing… at least in anything that really matters.

bwburke94says:

Although this is a significantly different situation from the Big House/Slippi incident, it still comes down to the fact the game is being streamed for profit.

Nintendo has the right to shut down streams. They do not have the right to shut down the tournament altogether, although with the way the tourney scene works nowadays, unstreamed tournaments are nearly unheard of.

bwburke94says:

Although this is a significantly different situation from the Big House/Slippi incident, it still comes down to the fact the game is being streamed for profit.

Nintendo has the right to shut down streams. They do not have the right to shut down the tournament altogether, although with the way the tourney scene works nowadays, unstreamed tournaments are nearly unheard of.

PaulTsays:

Re: Wrong question

Because, as has to be brought up time and time again when this same question is brought up – the average consumer neither knows or cares about any of the issues being raised. A parent buying Smash Bros and Zelda for their kids doesn’t give 2 shits about the way modders and tournaments are treated. These actions don’t affect them in the slightest.

When asking these questions, you don’t ask "why are people putting up with this stuff". The question is "does the average consumer know about this?". If you venture outside of tech blogs, the answer is usually "no".

Anonymoussays:

Re:

Let’s be clear: Yes, Nintendo has the legal right to do this but just because they can, doesn’t mean they should.

The article seems to suggest copyright infringment is not the reason given. If they are not pursing this action under copyright, what does give them the right?

IANAL, but as far as I know: moding may fall under copyright… but outside of copyright they have essentially no authority. As far as I know the only "tool" left would be:
Trademark, which shouldn’t apply here (and doesn’t really cover events… worst case would be a name change or something).
Patents, but those should be exhausted at disk/console sale time. Finally EULA… but I seem to recall there being no test cases about the enforceability of them, especially since their text is only available after a purchase.

Anyhow: if copyright is not being invoked here, it isn’t at all clear that Nintendo has the right.

tpsays:

Re: Re:

if copyright is not being invoked here, it isn’t at all clear that Nintendo has the right.

If nintendo is creating a product, they can freely decide what features are available in the product. Usage of the product outside of the designed features is illegal, i.e. misuse of the offered services. It’s like using crowbar to rob a jewelry store — the crowbar manufacturer is legally required to prevent that kind of misuses, if the technology allows the blocking. Sadly smart crowbars are significantly more expensive than ordinary ones.

But since nintendo can choose which features to include to their product, they should actually actively prevent those broken use cases. It’s failure of nintendo that they haven’t created such software that actively prevents the misuses. When the software doesn’t do good enough job preventing misuses, then they have no other choice than cease & desist.

So news items like this are failures in two different ways: 1) the tournament organizers are using nintendo product commercially in ways which weren’t in nintendo’s original feature sets 2) nintendo failed to prevent that use case in their software.

Anonymoussays:

Re: Re: Re:

1) the tournament organizers are using nintendo product commercially in ways which weren’t in nintendo’s original feature sets 2) nintendo failed to prevent that use case in their software.

This argument would have succeeded if not for 1) Nobody paid money to be in the tournament, beyond the money that anyone traveling to said event would have paid anyway, and 2) You’re asking Nintendo to preemptively prevent anyone it might not like from playing its game, so… yeah, let’s use this as another example of you expecting tech to do something it’s not supposed to, in a sad attempt to hawk your own pathetic wares.

tpsays:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

companies have the right to assert “approved” uses for the products they sell

1) it’s illegal to short-circuit or use larger than specified voltage for electronics gadgets
2) it’s illegal to use guns/knives/hammers/crowbars to rob jewelry store
3) it’s illegal to use explosives without explosives -permit
4) it’s illegal to commit copyright infringement for any copyrighted work
5) it’s illegal to park your car to a tram rails
6) it’s illegal to make your workers work overtime without overtime compensation
7) it’s illegal to steal a car
8) it’s illegal to burn someone’s house
9) it’s illegal to do tax fraud
10) it’s illegal to sell a ponzi scheme
11) it’s illegal to murder people with knives/guns/poison/cars/etc..

Every one of these are a product misuse. Some company manufactured a product that is being misused in the illegal operation. Companies have right and responsibility to prevent these misuses (and other misuses which I missed).

tpsays:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

I’m sure your CPU vendor did not intend their processors to be used to post crazy comments.

Well, the posting of crazy comments is a combination of the following modules:
1) network card
2) keyboard
3) monitors
4) cables
5) cpu
6) power supply
7) electricity
8) internet
9) servers/server farms

Obviously product vendors need to allow all combinations, as long as the products are being used like they were intended to be used. Typing on a keyboard is pretty safe operation. Watching your monitor screen is also very safe. Executing commands on your cpu is safe… Connecting your cables is safe. Trolling on internet is safe, etc… product vendors need to allow all combinations, also from competing products.

tpsays:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

explain how what you said couldn’t be used by Toyota to make me buy Goodyear tires (and only Goodyear tires)

Apple is building all kinds of lightning ports to make sure users do not connect the device to gadgets that are not approved by the apple headquarters. Product vendors who want to support lightning ports, need to pay ransom money to apple to get permission to use the connectors. Users have no other choice than buy compatibile devices with lightning port included.

So yes, it can be used by Toyota to make you buy goodyear tires. Just ensure that the connector is not compatible with standard tires.

Anonymoussays:

Re:

‘digitizing your own owned game in order to participate in the tournament is not "piracy."’

Typically software is sold as a license for use and those licenses typically restrict use to the device manufacturer has designed the software to run on.

For example, If you rip a NES game, so long as you own the original and only run it on an NES, your golden. However, if you instead run it on your PC with an emulator, you’ve broken the licensing agreement and one could argue that this would be piracy.

Stephen T. Stonesays:

Every one of these are a product misuse.

  1. nope

  2. robbery is illegal; whether you use a weapon to commit the act is irrelevant

  3. less a “product misuse” and more a bureaucratic mistake

  4. that’s not a “product misuse”, that’s just a law being broken⁠—and Fair Use is still a thing despite all your wishing and begging and praying to your god

  5. not really a product misuse

  6. holy shit are you referring to people as “products”, what the fuck is wrong with you

  7. not a product misuse, just a crime

  8. not a product misuse, just a crime

  9. not a product misuse, just a crime

  10. not a product misuse, just a crime

  11. this is the one instance in which yes, you’ve hit upon an actual product misuse⁠—but even then, you’re still screwed, because guns are made for the purpose of hurting/killing other living beings and murder isn’t illegal if it’s done in defense of self or others

How are you so bad at this.

PaulTsays:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

Hey, I tell you what, instead of whining about third-rate incomprehensible software for which you don’t even have a defined use case is failing in the market, why don’t you design this? The market is wide open for anyone who can make a piece of metal magically know what it’s being used for. You’d not only be rich, there’s probably a Nobel Prize in there for you as well. For for it!

Anonymoussays:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

Users have no other choice than buy compatibile devices with lightning port included.

USB-to-Lightning converters exist. Apple can suck it.

So yes, it can be used by Toyota to make you buy goodyear tires. Just ensure that the connector is not compatible with standard tires.

If I buy the car, I can remove their incompatible connector and put a standard tire/wheel on the car. And there’s nothing Toyota can do about it.

PaulTsays:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

"Users have no other choice than buy compatibile devices with lightning port included."

Well, unless you ignore the fact that adapters exist. Also, the choice you always forget people have – not to buy from Apple and use a competitor that fits their needs better. Offering a product for sale does not mean people have to buy it.

"Just ensure that the connector is not compatible with standard tires"

…and watch as that product fails in the market, while presumably the automotive version of tp whines that people won’t buy his deliberately broken and hazardous product.

Oninoshikosays:

Re: Re:

While these types of things are always on a case-by-case basis, so this is not legal advice (blah blah blah), it seems pretty clear to my this is a derivative work. One of the exclusive copyrights offered to creators of original works is, generally, the right to make derivatives.

The authority is, as always the law, in this case 17 USC 106: "Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:… …to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;"

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106

While it’s not PIRACY as we normally think of it, it’s still a copyright violation.

PaulTsays:

Re: Re: Re: Wrong question

Mainstream consumers generally won’t care about something unless it directly affects them, especially if they’re happy with the end product. Videogame customers are no different from fashion, fast food, or any other customer in this regard.

Then, if most customers don’t know or care about a particular issue, you’re not going to see any protest in the marketplace. Unless Nintendo screw up as much as EA did with Star Wars Battlefront 2, you’re not going to see a similar outcry, and their track record suggests that they know which markets to not offend in this regard.

Rockysays:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

Then it’s not the "non-compatible tire connector" that causes products to fail in the market. Maybe the failure is all about "not having already existing and popular product line"?

If don’t have a popular product line, that in itself is a form of failure. Adding proprietary features to that is just doubling down on failure. If you have a popular product with a huge amount of customers, proprietary connectors isn’t that big of a problem, but if your product has a small user base, proprietary connectors can be why the product fails in the end unless the product have something else going for it so customers are willing to put up with it.

This is one of the most basic things (together with pricing it right) you need to know when producing and marketing a product, understanding that the acceptance of some features that are proprietary hinges on how large your customer base is and their willingness to accept the product’s proprietary features because other features outweigh that.

The amount of people who would willingly accept that their car needs proprietary tires is miniscule. There are of course people who will accept this, but that’s because they happen to own a supercar like a Koenigsegg or McLaren for example, but if someone wants to buy a Golf to commute with and they find out they are forced to buy the tires from WV/Audi at an inflated price (pun not intended) it’s very likely that the sales for that car model would tank for the simple reason that people have an expectation that tires are something you can buy anywhere.

tpsays:

Re:

> Offering a product for sale does not mean people have to buy it.

Don’t worry, tp knows all about that. ????

It also works the other way around. If you don’t offer a product for sale, it’s impossible to get money from your customers. Offering it for sale is precondition for your ability to receive money for it.

So why are you not offering products for sale?

Stephen T. Stonesays:

why are you not offering products for sale?

Maybe I am, maybe I’m not. That makes no difference as to whether your particular offering is a failure.

And given everything you’ve told us about yourself over the years, Meshpage is most certainly a failure of both technology and marketing. I mean, who the fuck would ever want to use a piece of software that does only and specifically what its designer wants people to do with it, is upkept by someone who is actively hostile towards the rest of humanity, will never be changed by that developer based on genuine good-faith criticism, and has no clear superiority in either features or output when compared to other contemporary software of its kind?

Your software is less than a joke, because at least jokes are funny. You’ve spent years dedicating yourself to the Sisyphean task of making something that can outperform Blender⁠—a task which, as the adjective implies, you have continuously failed at achieving in every aspect except the one you claim is the absolute most important. Literally no one would ever want to use software that is so limiting in its functionality that even a single accidental instance of copyright infringement would be enough to make that software⁠—and its developer⁠—treat a user like a convicted criminal who deserves no less than life in prison for daring to violate the Holy Sacred Testament that is copyright law. And that’s even before we get to how every other piece of software in that field outperforms yours in every way that matters (to other people [who aren’t you {thank God}]).

I wouldn’t be this harsh on you if you treated Meshpage like a hobby or side project⁠—a curiosity to be played with every once in a while. But you act like it will sincerely and seriously change the world of 3D rendering software forever if you could just make people use it. Your hubris, your ego, your religious worship of copyright, and your outright contempt for every one of the seven billion people on this planet who aren’t you compel me to do this shit. Trust me, I don’t want to be doing this shit. But since I am…

Meshpage is a failure; always has been, always will be. You may not be as big a joke as I am, but you’re definitely close to it. Your fervent devotion to copyright as a law above both Man’s Law and God’s Law is disturbing even to someone who regularly witnesses the inanity of copyright maximalists. Please go outside and touch grass for about a year⁠—and trust me when I say that if I need to do that (and I do!), you need it worse.

PaulTsays:

Re:

"the Sisyphean task of making something that can outperform Blender"

Unaided, it should be mentioned. He apparently had some collaborators at some point but closed his Github repo and whined that open source software can’t work. I presume this is because people tried injecting reality into the project.

It should also be mentioned that competing with Blender is only one of the claims he’s made. He’s also stated that it’s intended for children to learn with (a noble goal, but they wouldn’t learn any transferrable skills with that software), and most recently that it’s intended to display icons on a phone. He’s also had to provide instructions on how to use it here, since it wasn’t clear that the software actually allows you to interact with the image rather than it simply being an 1993 Amiga-level static animation on his website.

If a developer not only shuts out all collaboration but can’t even decide the actual purpose for which it is to be used, it’s unlikely that the software will be useful. Even if he did find a niche where it was an invaluable tool – would you want to use something that is so poorly supported?

"I wouldn’t be this harsh on you if you treated Meshpage like a hobby or side project⁠—a curiosity to be played with every once in a while. But you act like it will sincerely and seriously change the world of 3D rendering software forever if you could just make people use it."

That’s not even the problem. It’s the fact that he thinks that because he failed to get any users with an incomprehensible bus advert displayed to people who wouldn’t be interested if they could understand the message, that means that the entire concept of creativity needs to be dismantled and he needs huge amounts of free money because he got some code to compile correctly.

Anonymoussays:

Re: Re: Re:

The creativity isn’t useful if you cannot get the resulting code to compile.

And if your resulting code can’t even compile then what the fuck do you want people to pay you money for? For an inferior product that can’t even compete with free?

I’ll say maybe the one good thing you have going for you is that you regularly eviscerate your own arguments and demands simply by exhaling, so thanks once again that Meshpage isn’t worth the electricity you spent typing it all out.

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