Police Department Says It Would Rather Have A Good Relationship With The Community Than Cheap Military Gear

from the correctly-ordered-priorities dept

Here's something worth reading: the Burlington, Vermont Police Department has announced it will no longer be participating in the Dept. of Defense's 1033 Program. This program is the well-intentioned effort to somehow make use of excess/old military inventory. Unfortunately, along with desks, computers, file cabinets and other office staples, the government also allows police departments to pick up mine-resistant vehicles, assault rifles, grenade launchers and other military gear -- often at a steep discount that's made even more inexpensive by Homeland Security grants.

The full press release by the says several things those within its jurisdiction need to hear, along with the rest of the nation's law enforcement agencies (via Information Liberation)

The Burlington Police Department announced today that the Department has severed its ties with the much-scrutinized “1033 Program,” a Department of Defense initiative that allows aging military equipment to be repurposed for domestic policing. Until this summer, the Burlington Police Department possessed two military-issued night vision devices, which were the extent of its holdings under the Department of Defense (DOD) program.

“The militarization of local police departments is a genuine concern in our nation,” said Burlington Chief of Police Brandon del Pozo. “There are times when military-style equipment is essential for public safety, but they are very rare. Between our partners in the Vermont State Police and the Vermont National Guard, as well as the other federal and local agencies the Burlington Police Department partners with, we have the resources to handle all but the most inconceivable public safety scenarios. Amassing a worst-case scenario arsenal of military equipment results in officers seeing everyday policework through a military lens. When I realized what a small role the military played in equipping our police, I concluded it was better to return the items and let our 1033 Program memorandum of understanding expire.”

The Burlington Police Department has no plans to acquire tactical or military items beyond the types of conventional policing equipment it already possesses.

Mayor Miro Weinberger offered his support of this decision: “Today’s announcement cements the Burlington Police Department’s long-standing practice of avoiding the use of military equipment, in contrast to many other police departments. Our focus instead is on the basics of good policing in the 21st century: foot patrols, strong relationships between the officers and the community, and the use of modern tools to increase public transparency and police effectiveness."
One thing should be clarified: the 1033 Program is by no means mandatory. "Severing ties" really means just deciding not to participate. The MOU may have expired but it could have run on forever without the PD feeling obligated to order anything from the 1033 catalog.

What's more important are the sentiments expressed by the Burlington police chief. He recognizes that acquiring military gear only leads to a military mindset that turns public servants into an invading force. Even better, del Pozo recognizes that using worst-case scenarios as justification for heavily-armored vehicles and military weaponry is a bullshit tactic. As we've seen time and time again, local law enforcement will claim anything and everything is a "potential terrorist target" just so they can acquire cheap MRAPs and M4A1 rifles. Del Pozo isn't going to take his force down a similar path.

The mayor's vocal support of this decision is a pleasant surprise as well. Mayor Weinberger won't be making himself any friends in other law enforcement agencies after calling them out for their (ab)use of the 1033 program. Hopefully, other agencies will see Burlington's very public opt-out as worthy of emulation. But considering the latest narratives to take hold (Ferguson Effect, War on Cops) both paint police officers as under siege, it's highly doubtful many will recognize the goodwill they could generate simply by treating residents as human beings, rather than enemy combatants.

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Filed Under: 1033, burlington, community policing, military equipment, police, relationships, vermont


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  • icon
    Violynne (profile), 11 Nov 2015 @ 4:36am

    I was beginning to think Techdirt forgot how to write a "good news" article.

    My faith in humanity has been restored.

    Twice.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Nov 2015 @ 8:45am

      Re:

      Faith will never be restored... but its always very nice to see some good news though...

      I just wish more police would follow these guys example.

      Just as in all Authority, you should NEVER EVER HAVE FAITH in any of them. Even if they have had a centuries worth of perfect performance you still cannot trust or have faith in them for that is the very moment that corruption will be allowed to enter and destroy it!

      Lets leave faith for the religious folk, it has no benefit when faith is pointed at humanity or ANY of its institutions!

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      You are being watched (profile), 11 Nov 2015 @ 9:33am

      Re:

      It's just a break in the clouds showing a ray of light. You'll look at it for a moment and marvel at the novelty of it before you look back down the road and pray that the storm you're driving through doesn't spawn a tornado in your path.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Zero, 11 Nov 2015 @ 9:51am

      Re:

      I completely agree. It's always appreciated to hear about those situations when there are those such as this mayor and police chief recognize there are avenues towards repairing their image with their citizens instead of following the current narrative (war on cops, etc.).

      I applaud TD for reporting this and those officials in their decisions. Perhaps other communities and media outlets will take notice by their example.

      Faith in humanity is still at an all time low, but this is a step to restoring it. Awesome article

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    That Anonymous Coward (profile), 11 Nov 2015 @ 6:53am

    It is nice to see them understand the issues presented by getting new toys, the desire to find ways to get to use them.
    Why talk to a subject when the pepperspray fogger is right there?
    Why serve a warrant, when we can play dress up and roll a whole swat team to remind Mr. Jenkins burning leaves is illegal?
    The best tool that officers have, is supposed to be their mind. Showing up dressed for a riot, changes the mindset of everyone involved. Bigger & better toys just crank everything up, when all that was needed was a polite word & understanding.

    The other fall out from having to use the new toys, is finding ways to justify actions that shouldn't have been taken. Protecting the 'image' is more important that reigning in a cop who has gone to far. More and more gets excused, and then the tears that the public isn't supporting them. There is a disconnect that these actions are tied to each other, blaming everything but the real problems.

    Accountability is required from both sides, the problem is for us acting like a jerk can end up with hospital stay. For them it at best seems to be a paid vacation to enjoy having gotten away with it again.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Jason, 11 Nov 2015 @ 6:57am

    ...we have the resources to handle all but the most inconceivable public safety scenarios.
    Sadly, there are a great many people who spend far more time preparing for "the most inconceivable scenarios" than they do for situations that are vastly more likely to occur.

    Still, this is a welcome event. Let's hope more cities follow Burlington's lead.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Nov 2015 @ 8:38am

      Re:

      --Sadly, there are a great many people who spend far more time preparing for "the most inconceivable scenarios" than they do for situations that are vastly more likely to occur.

      Exactly.
      When less than 4K died on 9-11 and 30k+ die each year in automotive accidents our government chooses to spend a disproportinate amount of money on the lesser problem.

      Maybe some day they will want to prevent actual deaths and stop wasting $$$ on anti-terrorism and direct it toward anti-automotive-fatalities.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 11 Nov 2015 @ 8:53am

        Re: Re:

        I agree, same with the war on drugs. with the amount of money spent I would rather fund state sanction crack houses were people can get their high under supervision with the option or possible requirement to attend a self help group or something before they can leave.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 11 Nov 2015 @ 5:42pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          The war on drugs is a stupid waste of money and will never stop stuff abuse.

          The reality is that controlling drugs and making some illegal does nothing to stop abuse. It does however create a need for a black market and the crime that comes with black markets.

          If I could walk to the corner drug store and purchase my heroin it would put the street dealer or of business AND prevent me from getting some tainted shit that kills me.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        nasch (profile), 12 Nov 2015 @ 3:54pm

        Re: Re:

        Maybe some day they will want to prevent actual deaths and stop wasting $$$ on anti-terrorism and direct it toward anti-automotive-fatalities.

        They can't win! They pass regulations to improve automotive safety and it's a socialist nanny state takeover that also takes money out of the pockets of hard working people by making cars more expensive. People still die in car accidents and they're not doing enough to protect us.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Altaree, 11 Nov 2015 @ 7:06am

    Throwing out the baby with the bath water?

    I can see the Burlington VT police not needing serious military equipment, but why are they turning down the opportunity to repurpose cheap government office supplies as you stated: "along with desks, computers, file cabinets and other office staples"? Reading the Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1033_program indicates that one of the big uses of the program is cheap ammunition. I really want police officers to be able to hit where they aim. This requires live fire range time which uses ammunition. If the police department can get their bullets cheaper through 1033, so much the better.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Nov 2015 @ 7:54am

      Re: Throwing out the baby with the bath water?

      I can see your point, but I prefer "not shooting at anything" as an alternative to "shooting where they aim".
      Aside from that, perhaps the community goodwill coming from this gesture would come with a policing cost reduction that offsets any increased costs the department has to pay for desks...

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        TheLoot (profile), 11 Nov 2015 @ 8:11am

        Re: Re: Throwing out the baby with the bath water?

        "I prefer 'not shooting at anything'"

        How's the weather on that planet?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 11 Nov 2015 @ 8:30am

          Re: Re: Re: Throwing out the baby with the bath water?

          *facepalm*

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 11 Nov 2015 @ 8:30am

          Re: Re: Re: Throwing out the baby with the bath water?

          The weather in Ireland (to name just one country) tends to be cool and wet, and police shootings don't happen there because the police simply don't carry guns -- or even want to.

          The same is true in countless other countries: where police are unarmed, shootings don't happen because cops are then forced to resolve situations using other means ... like thinking.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          tqk (profile), 11 Nov 2015 @ 11:10am

          Re: Re: Re: Throwing out the baby with the bath water?

          You're quite the ditz. This's a classic case of "kneejerk, redneck reaction", not to mention completely missing the point of the article which is that police are peace officers who should be enforcing the law and protecting citizens from would be offenders, not a military organization fighting a war against domestic insurgents.

          In the immortal words of Cheech & Chong, "Bailiff, whack his peepee!"

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Nov 2015 @ 8:03am

      Re: Throwing out the baby with the bath water?

      I can't recall a single article that complained about the ammunition, just the weapons themselves. For example a M4 carbine is a legitimate weapon for a police department though those should be deployed only for really bad situations; they should not be displayed for normal stop-and-questions. The ammunition for a M4 is common to other weapons so it should not be unusual for a police department to obtain such ammunition.

      Now if we're talking about a 50 caliber sniper rifle, then it's a legitimate question as to why a police department would need such a weapon, and the ammunition thereof.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Nov 2015 @ 8:31am

      Re: Throwing out the baby with the bath water?

      Easily solved. Take away their guns.

      Maybe then they'd stop summarily executing 6-year-old children.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Bamboo Harvester (profile), 11 Nov 2015 @ 9:13am

      Re: Throwing out the baby with the bath water?

      They aren't:

      "The Burlington Police Department has no plans to acquire tactical or military items beyond the types of conventional policing equipment it already possesses. "

      I read that as they're not "buying" military weaponry, but will continue to use the program for the items they already use for "conventional policing".

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Nov 2015 @ 7:48am

    military gear AND military tactics

    The problem is not the military gear as much as the military tactics that police always use.

    For instance, when cops knock on someone's door in a routine visit (such as a welfare check) why can't they remain standing there -- so that the person inside can look through the door's peephole and plainly see an officer in uniform -- instead of ducking to the side and hugging the wall where they can't be seen (but presumably putting them in the ideal position to rush inside in a sudden ambush with guns blazing)? Why do cops always have to act like they're expecting the worst possible outcome from every routine encounter with the public?

    Sadly, it seems that police never consider that people will become suspicious when they hear a knock at the door but can't see anyone there ... and are therefore more likely to either not open the door or open the door while holding a gun -- both of which are likely to result in a violent outcome.

    It will be a welcome change when American police finally start treating the public as decent human beings instead of wild dogs or enemy combatants in a war zone.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Nov 2015 @ 10:40am

      Re: military gear AND military tactics

      Sadly, it seems that police never consider that people will become suspicious when they hear a knock at the door but can't see anyone there ... and are therefore more likely to either not open the door or open the door while holding a gun -- both of which are likely to result in a violent outcome.
      I'm pretty sure that many of them do consider it, and they consider it a good way to have fun on the job.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Innocent Bystander, 11 Nov 2015 @ 7:57am

    Good example, but limited scope

    Unfortunately, the police departments most willing to set a good example by walking away from this program are also the ones that can use it responsibly. Two night-vision devices (the military gear this department actually had) sound a lot more reasonable and relevant to policing than bearcats and grenade launchers.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    TheLoot (profile), 11 Nov 2015 @ 8:08am

    People should follow this example...

    Leave your doors open and unlocked, keys in your car, valuables on your front porch. Keeping things locked away just means you think all your neighbors are thieves. Don't you want a good relationship with them instead?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      John Fenderson (profile), 11 Nov 2015 @ 8:21am

      Re: People should follow this example...

      "Following the example" wouldn't be that. It would be to stop stockpiling military weaponry because you wanted a better relationship with your neighbors. Which is not a terrible idea.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        That One Guy (profile), 11 Nov 2015 @ 8:44am

        Re: Re: People should follow this example...

        Wait, you mean getting military surplus weapons, and pointing them at my neighbors because they looked at me funny and/or I thought their garden hose was a potential weapon is not the proper way to develop a friendly rapport with them?

        Never would have guessed, I mean it works great for the police, figured it would work just as good for non-cops at establishing relationships of mutual trust and respect.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Nov 2015 @ 9:28am

      Re: People should follow this example...

      Perception is key: The difference between a locked door and an unlocked door is nill for those passing by.

      Thus your example lacks a lot of the characteristic similarity needed for an analogy to make sense.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Nov 2015 @ 8:24am

    "He said WHAT?! Cops - get him!"

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Marky, 11 Nov 2015 @ 8:39am

    One question...

    I'm not too worried about police departments having armored cars and trucks, the upkeep is so expensive they'll just be rusting in the impound yard in a few years.

    The thing that perplexed me was the 1033 program gave away bayonets... about 8,000 of them. What possible use do the cops need bayonets for?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 11 Nov 2015 @ 9:48am

      Re: One question...

      "The thing that perplexed me was the 1033 program gave away bayonets... about 8,000 of them. What possible use do the cops need bayonets for?"

      What possible use does a modern military need bayonets for?

      The bayonet was indeed very useful back in the days of muzzle-loading muskets (especially in the rain, when flintlocks would not make sparks and wet powder would not burn) which due to black powder's slow burn rate, needed near-pike-length barrels, which literally begged for something sharp to stick on the end.

      But ever since the mid-1800s advent of the repeating rifle and multi-shot pistol/revolver, the bayonet, as a standard infantry weapon, became a lingering relic of a completely outdated battlefield tactic known as the bayonet charge. That bayonets would still have a place in 21st century warfare -- let alone the post-19th century battlefield -- would suggest a heavy preference of style over substance.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 11 Nov 2015 @ 10:18am

        Re: Re: One question...

        Hell, what do we need regular infantry and their weapons for in modern warfare? Spotters for planes and artillery and positional retention is all and that can be achieved with civilians who are barely able to find the right end of the gun...

        Modern warfare is in substance merely more than a question of large equipment and learning to operate it. The military personel in Afghanistan, Kosova etc. are barely more than a substitute police and ambassadors to local authority.

        That is probably also part of the reason behind the stockpiles of equipment in 1033. That bayonettes are in the 1033 program is surprising since most of them should be antique by now and therefore valuable collectors items.

        I mean, why waste them on police, when certain politicians are fond of them and likely to pay well for them?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          nasch (profile), 12 Nov 2015 @ 3:59pm

          Re: Re: Re: One question...

          Hell, what do we need regular infantry and their weapons for in modern warfare? Spotters for planes and artillery and positional retention is all and that can be achieved with civilians who are barely able to find the right end of the gun...

          Pretty sure we found uses for them in three of the most recent wars.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        That Anonymous Coward (profile), 11 Nov 2015 @ 3:09pm

        Re: Re: One question...

        Anyone want to take bets if there is a bayonet mount on predator drones?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 11 Nov 2015 @ 4:19pm

          Re: Re: Re: One question...

          Or just the same, if it's a Texas drone then it just might need the obligatory bull horns as a hood ornament.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Nov 2015 @ 8:53am

    bravo. police getting back to policing.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Nov 2015 @ 10:56am

    I went to college there way back when they elected Bernie Sanders mayor. It's a great town. Gotta love Vermonters, almost always happy to poke the establishment in the eye when they can.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 11 Nov 2015 @ 11:09am

    bdj

    The tax payers bought the equipment that the 1033 program reallocates. The public is led to believe that the military hardware is needed for fighting our enemies abroad. If the government told the people that they wanted to buy it for the local police, the people would fiercely object. So when the government purchases military equipment and then turns around and deploys it to local police, it's really an end-run around the system. The military is not authorized to police the citizens. Militarizing the police and arming them with the machines of war should be a violation of posse comitatus.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1385

    The 1033 program should either sell the unused equipment to our allies or recycle it. Any proceeds should be repaid to the Treasury to be used for future purchases that benefit the country.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    Whatever (profile), 11 Nov 2015 @ 4:28pm

    OMFG you guys are funny!

    Did anyone bother to check up on the racial mix of Burlington Vermont before touting this story? Seriously?

    93% of the population is white. 39000 people, and 32500 of them are white. There are less than 700 black people in the city, outnumbered by more than 1000 Asian people.

    The city is so white bread, it's beyond understanding. They just don't have the issues that the other cities face. They don't have an "inner city" or a "ghetto" or a huge gang problem (biggest gang in Burlington is the cows in the farmer's fields).

    It's sort of like Miami turning down snowplows. *facepalm*

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      John Fenderson (profile), 11 Nov 2015 @ 6:20pm

      Re: OMFG you guys are funny!

      Your comment would make a little more sense if you were talking about economic status rather than race.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        Whatever (profile), 11 Nov 2015 @ 8:10pm

        Re: Re: OMFG you guys are funny!

        With due respect John, Burlignton isn't the richest place in the world, but it has a very low crime rate and part of that is not having all the trappings of crime ridden cities of the US - and yes, that includes things that make some people say "that's Wassist!". It's fairly easy to draw a correlation between ethnic mix and crime rates, but few have the balls to do it. Those that do generally find themselves in serious shit because nobody wants to deal with reality.

        Ignoring the facts is sort of like saying "guns don't kill people"... but damn, have you ever tried to push a bullet into someone by hand? Hard work. Some people have a hard time accepting that guns kill and injure so many people each year. They deny cause and effect (while screaming to take the guns away from the cops because people get killed... odd that).

        America won't get better until there is a shift back to personal responsiblity and less PC bullcrap that makes us avoid talking about problems because someone might get offended or start a riot and burn down unrelated stores.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 12 Nov 2015 @ 2:02pm

          Re: Re: Re: OMFG you guys are funny!

          There may be a high correlation between neighborhood, culture, "values" and crime. While US discussion is a bit to the pc-side, an "us and them"-rhetorics as some places in europe practise is worse. Mostly I would blame the racial profiling used in statistics and the publishing of those as being part of the problem.

          Crime is mostly a result of neighborhoods and their economic capability and economic diversity. Whatever else you try to sell is more likely a correlation not equal to causation error on the part of the analyst.

          While it is true that bullets won't be very effective to thrust into people using your hands. Using skin-colour to push a bullet into people is just that much more ridiculous...

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 11 Nov 2015 @ 9:12pm

        Re: Re: OMFG you guys are funny!

        Government statistics demonstrate a very high correlation between race and crime, which is apparently the point that poster was trying to make. And it's not just related to cultural "tastes" like crack cocaine.

        For instance, New Jersey police statistics showed that the perpetrators of the crime of carjacking were almost exclusively young, male, and black -- a tiny demographic that represents only about one percent of the general population. To claim that this particular crime is an issue of primarily "economic status rather than race" is a huge stretch to make.

        Source: New Jersey State Police
        http://www.njsp.org/info/ucr2011/pdf/2011_carjacking.pdf

        The perpetrators of (homosexual) prison rape are a similarly narrow (and yes, racially-skewed) demographic.

        Of course, it's considered highly "politically incorrect" -- as well as racist, xenophobic, etc -- to even notice such things. Even when such "prejudices" are formed by solid statistical evidence.

        OK, enough on that uncomfortable subject. Time to move on.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          John Fenderson (profile), 12 Nov 2015 @ 7:06am

          Re: Re: Re: OMFG you guys are funny!

          Yes, there is a strong correlation. However, the cause of dangerous areas is not that they tend to have a lot of blacks in them. It's that they tend to be very poor. That there are lots of blacks in those areas is due to our racist society.

          To bring up race when discussing this issue is to distract from the actual issues and to imply that the issue is something inherent to the race.

          My comment has nothing to do with political correctness and everything to do with trying to identify the actual problem.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            Whatever (profile), 12 Nov 2015 @ 10:08am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: OMFG you guys are funny!

            Sorry John, but you lose out on this one. Burlington Vermot has about a 20% "poverty" rate. Yet with a relatively high poverty rate, there don't have a high crime rate, they don't have random protests in the streets, they don't have people getting magically shot by police...

            it would be strange if there wasn't something entirely obvious, which is that most of the citizens are white or Asian. It's entirely racist to suggest poverty is only a black thing (it sure ain't) but it's incredibly ignorant to try to explain away the obvious facts:

            Burlington Vermont is not only as white as it gets, all of the surrounding areas for probably 100 miles in any direction are also equally as white. They don't have the crime rate, they don't have ghettos, they don't have the problems that come with it all. They don't need the 1033 funds and equipment because... the people are generally well behaved and respectful of the law and law enforcement.

            If you want to consider the reasons for the militarization of police, just use Burlington as your polar opposite, and look for what other places have or don't have that makes it a pretty need.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 12 Nov 2015 @ 1:51pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OMFG you guys are funny!

              You are missing something obvious. Vermont has next to no gun laws, and that includes concealed carry.

              When the populace is disarmed, and have to rely solely on the police, LOGISTICS plays a critical role in how much crime is able to happen.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        tqk (profile), 12 Nov 2015 @ 9:58am

        Re: Re: OMFG you guys are funny!

        Your comment would make a little more sense if you were talking about economic status rather than race.

        All through this thread, I've been thinking of the Bob Newhart show with Larry, Darrel, and his other brother Darrel. I don't remember seeing many chicanos or blacks in that show, but poor people, yup.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      nasch (profile), 12 Nov 2015 @ 4:02pm

      Re: OMFG you guys are funny!

      Right, no black people in Burlington, therefore there is no reason to report on this story. Jeez, what are you high on anyway?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]


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