Supporters Of Article 13, After Denying It's About Filters, Now Say It's About Regulating Filters Which They Admit Don't Work

from the get-your-freaking-story-straight dept

As the EU Parliament gets ready to vote on the EU Copyright Directive and Articles 11 and 13, the desperation from the supporters of these laws is reaching a fever pitch. It’s gotten to the point that their own arguments no longer make any sense and are totally inconsistent with what they’ve been saying for months. Late last week, a new group sprung up with a website called Manifesto4copyright.eu. It is an astounding document in so many ways, not the least of which is it admits that Article 13 is about filters, while also admitting that filters don’t work.

It starts off with a huge misrepresentation: that the authors supporting it are for an “open and fair internet without censorship.” Except that’s belied by the rest of the “manifesto,” which makes about as much sense as any other ranting internet manifesto:

We all live among the digital revolution. We want to shape it, not prevent it. Authors must be paid. Therefore, the internet needs good rules. There is no freedom without rules! Otherwise, only the strongest will prevail as has happened with the internet-giants. We are no technophobes. We want good governance for the digital world. We want an open and fair internet.

Authors are paid. If they sell their works to willing customers, they get paid. Nothing has changed. Indeed, artists are making more money than ever before. Also, what’s with the Orwellian “there is no freedom without rules” line in there?

Of course, the next paragraph suggests who might actually be behind this particular manifesto. See if you can figure it out by looking at the “myths” they claim they are busting:

The criticism we have is merely of the myths and fighting talk, which are poisoning the current debate: A free internet at no charge, publishers as evil exploiters, authors ripped off by collecting societies, the enforcement of copyright as censorship.

Wait, who’s asking for an internet free of charge? No one that I know of. And also, if you don’t believe that copyright is frequently and regularly used for censorship, you simply have not been paying attention and have no place in this debate. You are ignorant.

But, let’s focus in on the other one: complaining that it’s a myth that publishers and collection societies rip off those they supposedly represent. I’m guessing that this manifesto was put together by those very collection societies. And since they insist this is a myth, let’s go for a little walk down memory lane about collection societies.

  • There was the Spanish collection society, SGAE which was raided by the police after its top execs were accused of stealing $550 million from artists.
  • A UK government-backed inquiry into abuse by collection societies received so many entries from people so angry that it felt it needed to block their release.
  • In the US, ASCAP both announced that it was taking in more money than ever and that it was cutting payments to artists on the same day.
  • In India, courts had to step in to block collection societies from collecting money from concerts they had no right to collect money from.
  • In Germany, GEMA told musicians that they were simply not allowed to offer music for free as it would violate GEMA’s rules.
  • In Peru, another corruption scandal found that a collection society there was diverting revenue from artists to friends.
  • In Kenya, a collection society was found to be paying less than one-third of the money it was supposed to be giving out. That resulted in a court having to step in and bar the collection society from continuing to collect.
  • In France, the local collection society made bands pay the collection society in order to make their own albums, and again in order to get paid the money they are owed.

And those are just a few quick examples from Techdirt in doing a quick search. There are many, many, many more such stories. In 2012 there was an entire paper detailing more examples. And, since that was 7 years ago, last year, a second version of the paper was published with even more examples.

So, gee, I wonder where we get the idea that collection societies rip off creators?

And, from there, things get even weirder in the manifesto:

Google and Facebook are already using filter algorithms. They filter not only ? as intended ? illegal content (e.g. pornographic or terrorist content), but also completely legal content (e.g. photos of naked bodies). They do so arbitrarily and without democratic regulation. The new directive, however, will regulate filters. At the same time, the platforms currently earn their money by making third parties? content accessible and advertising it, without paying appropriate fees to the creators of this content ? photographers, musicians, authors, graphic artists. This is where the new directive on European copyright law comes in: Article 13 regulates how licensing works for platforms. Platforms should pay creatives fair and reasonable remuneration by obtaining licences for the global repertoire. If they have such flat-rate licences from collecting societies, they do not need to filter content.

Um, what?

Google and Facebook are already using filters. We agree. But then… it admits that the filters don’t work, because they work “arbitrarily.” And then they admit that Article 13 will “regulate filters” which apparently no one told them they’re not supposed to admit to until after Article 13 becomes law. Indeed, every time we mention that Article 13 will require filters, someone shows up in our comments with some demand about how the law says nothing anywhere about filters. Yet here, whoever is behind this manifesto appears to be arguing the following:

  1. Google and Facebook already use filters.
  2. Those filters are arbitrary and block legal content
  3. Article 13 will “regulate filters”
  4. And then they don’t need to use filters any more.

I’m honestly stumped. It’s true that filters don’t work very well. But nothing in Article 13 fixes that. I think they’re trying to say that if companies just pay to license up every bit of content (i.e., throw lots of money at collection societies described above) then they won’t need to use filters any more, but that is not what Article 13 says by any stretch of the imagination. First, for that to be true, it would only apply if a site could be guaranteed that it was even possible to license every possible bit of content ever. Which it is not. And thus, they would still need to use filters. Which will lead to mass, automated censorship.

The manifesto goes on from there, with some other nonsense — such insisting that “Memes are safe!” — but it’s really not worth spending more time on it, other than to suggest that if this is truly the best that collection societies could do with their propaganda, perhaps next time they should pay their writers more to write something coherent, and which doesn’t disagree with basically all the other lobbying messaging about Article 13.

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Comments on “Supporters Of Article 13, After Denying It's About Filters, Now Say It's About Regulating Filters Which They Admit Don't Work”

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159 Comments
That One Guy (profile) says:

The Golden Era of the Gatekeeper

First, for that to be true, it would only apply if a site could be guaranteed that it was even possible to license every possible bit of content ever. Which it is not. And thus, they would still need to use filters. Which lead to mass, automated censorship.

There is actually a way for their idea to be true, but it’s not a pretty one, and would gut the very sites they are talking about while creating gatekeepers with more power than ever.

The only way to make sure that only licenced content was posted would be to prohibit any content not licensed, such that if someone wanted to post to the likes of YT they would first need to sign with a licensing group(or a label/studio…), and then have them upload it(you know, when they got around to it).

Now I know what you’re thinking, ‘that sounds a lot like tv, where a handful of large companies get to decide what to show, and if you want your stuff to be shown then you have to go through them’, and the reason for that is… it’s pretty much exactly what it would be like. The label/studio/publisher gatekeepers of before would not only be back on their thrones, they’d have more power than ever before, and if you think a shift back to the gatekeeper model would be beneficial to the smaller creators that flourish under the current system… well, all I can say is treasure that naive innocence, you won’t have it for long.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Not everyone uploads third-party content.

I have news for you: Even if you own the content you plan to upload, if you upload it to a platform that you do not own, that content is still third party content.

Article 13 is an attempt to rebuild the internet from the ground up, which will shake the foundation of those who relied on UGC and third-party content as their (now obsolete) business model.

Ah, yes, and what exactly will that accomplish, given that it sounds a lot like trying to turn the Internet into a broadcast medium where only those with the most money and visible fame can transmit their content to the widest possible audience and everyone else can go fuck themselves with a rake?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

More like a broadcast medium where third parties can’t dilute the value of content uploaded by those who legitimately own it.

Authors have spoken of how their serial books do well on the first release, then the second is pirated, and no third is produced. Many users who pirate also make clear they wanted to read the offerings but didn’t want to pay for them.

The vote will occur, and life will go on either way.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

More like a broadcast medium where third parties can’t dilute the value of content uploaded by those who legitimately own it.

Yes, the value of a song I already have in my MP3 collection and my Spotify playlists is totally diluted by its existence on YouTube~.

Authors have spoken of how their serial books do well on the first release, then the second is pirated, and no third is produced.

Please name these authors and link to where they have said such things.

Many users who pirate also make clear they wanted to read the offerings but didn’t want to pay for them.

So what? Pirates gonna pirate. If they somehow convert to paying customers, great, but they can otherwise be ignored (or at least taken into account when designing a business model).

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Copying is not theft. Copying can be an illegal act if it violates someone’s copyright, but it cannot be theft because copying a digital file neither erases nor “steals” the “master copy”.

Oh, and the “potential sales” argument — which I am sure you were going to use — is a lame argument because the potential for someone to buy a creative work is not the equivalent of someone buying that work, and someone not buying that creative work (regardless of whether they “pirate” said work) is not the equivalent of someone taking money out of the hands of an artist. I could potentially buy a copy of, say, Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse on Blu-ray at any point in the future; if I decide not to buy it, that decision does not take money out of the hands of the filmmakers because my money was never in their hands in the first place. They had no guarantee to my money just because they released a (goddamned spectacular) film.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

It’s theft of the digital copy which is not authorized

That is not theft; that is copyright infringement. The two are not the same thing, which is a point that even the Supreme Court of the United States got right.

theft of one member of the audience that is diverted to organized crime

Good lord, are you legit comparing piracy to the goddamn mob?

Stopping criminals from making money is an equal or greater public interest than even protecting IP rights.

I have no issue with shutting down commercial copyright infringers. Where you and I seem to differ, however, is on the bullshit idea that all copyright infringers make money from their infringement.

Cdaragorn (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Re:

And yet literally millions of people continue to actually BUY books every year.

Bringing up the fallacy that no one will pay for something they can get for free yet again only demonstrates your own unwillingness to be honest in this discussion, or at least to learn what’s actually happening out in the world and instead stick to your false narrative despite the mountains of evidence against it.

Yes piracy exists. No it cannot be stopped, but more importantly no it isn’t what’s destroying these industries. They’re own unwillingness to adapt to new technologies and other changes in the marketplace is what’s bringing them down. That’s a normal process that has been going on since the dawn of civilization. The dying industries whining about it is also nothing new. Their complaints are no more legitimate today than they’ve ever been.

Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re:

More like a broadcast medium where third parties can’t dilute the value of content uploaded by those who legitimately own it.

You mean, where third parties can’t dilute the value of "approved" content by offering their stuff for free or cheaper.

Authors have spoken of how their serial books do well on the first release, then the second is pirated, and no third is produced. Many users who pirate also make clear they wanted to read the offerings but didn’t want to pay for them.

And some authors release some of their previously published books for free which makes the whole series sell better as actual printed books.

The thing is, those who read books go out of their way to buy a dead tree variant if they can.

Heck, there are some publishers that give away tons of books for free and regularly post 1/3 to 1/2 of new books online because it drives actual sales.

It’s a novel idea, give people want they want and somehow it makes sales increase. /s

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Re:

And some authors release some of their previously published books for free which makes the whole series sell better as actual printed books.

On Basilisk Station‘ by David Weber. I can safely say that it was only because I found that book online, and was able to read it for free that I have not only that one but a good number of books from the series currently sitting on my shelves in dead-tree format.

If you’ve got good content, something that people will actually want more of, and you offer it in an easy and reasonable manner ‘first try is free’ can be a very effective marketing strategy.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

If you’ve got good content, something that people will actually want more of, and you offer it in an easy and reasonable manner ‘first try is free’ can be a very effective marketing strategy.

To wit: The original Doom became a smash hit precisely because it was a good game that people wanted more of after the shareware demo.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

And then there is the mod scene for the original Doom — which is still going strong after 25 years — which technically modified the game in illegal ways. An argument could be made that such mods extended the lifespan of the game to the point where people still play it (and mod it) a quarter-century after its release. (Similar arguments could be made in re: randomizer mods for games such as The Legend of Zelda and Super Metroid.)

Cdaragorn (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Re:

Why even bring this argument up? No one here is disagreeing with you on this, although even copyright is not nearly as one sided as you present here.

Fighting piracy is not more important than maintaining freedom to speak and express ourselves. You don’t imprison the entire world just because there are a few people that won’t respect reasonable laws.

Bamboo Harvester (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Re:

Don’t forget "orphaned" works, out of print forever, hard copy can’t be found.

I’ve got several in my library, EE Doc Smith, Fritz Leiber, Ray Gallun, etc. that have on the title page "Scanned from a ratty old paperback I found at the bottom of a box from a garage sale" that I’d never even heard of – some of the Leiber is Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser novels from the forties and fifties that have never been reprinted.

Of course, when something drags those stories back into the light, Smith and Leiber don’t get a cent, what with being dead and all…

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

Ah, yes, and what exactly will that accomplish,

Pretty sure you just answered your own question there…

given that it sounds a lot like trying to turn the Internet into a broadcast medium where only those with the most money and visible fame can transmit their content to the widest possible audience and everyone else can go fuck themselves with a rake?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re:

"given that it sounds a lot like trying to turn the Internet into a broadcast medium where only those with the most money and visible fame can transmit their content to the widest possible audience and everyone else can go fuck themselves with a rake?"

You mean like Twitter?

MathFox says:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

Ah, yes, and what exactly will that accomplish, given that it sounds a lot like trying to turn the Internet into a broadcast medium where only those with the most money and visible fame can transmit their content to the widest possible audience

The Internet was designed as a network of peers, where no node was inherently [*] more important than another. You can see it as an egalitarian society of computers, where each of the connected computers could provide services to any of the other connected systems. It was designed without inherent gate-keepers, whether you call them moderators, censors or editors.
The publishers, the "gatekeepers of culture and opinion", (thanks to copyright law and monopoly practices: buy or destroy the competition) did not have a grip on the Internet like they have in the traditional media. That’s why copyright law has to be extended and the Internet has to be brought under control.

[*] Systems can have different roles in the network, but that’s not inherent in the Internet Protocol.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re:

Actually, gatekeepers (including reviewers, who have no ownership stake) are kept alive by the public, who demands a "book deal" or a "record deal" for legitimacy, even if both are no longer necessary. Why did e-books not become "cool" until Kindle when anyone could have published them fifteen years earlier?

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Re:

"(including reviewers, who have no ownership stake)"

Erm, reviewer aren’t gatekeepers, at least not in the context provided here.

Why did e-books not become "cool" until Kindle when anyone could have published them fifteen years earlier?"

I presume because it’s much less easy to read books on a standard LCD screen as opposed to an e-ink screen and people don’t like lugging a laptop to the beach. I know I didn’t bother with them until I bought my first Kindle, for that very reason.

Bamboo Harvester (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Re:

Exactly.

There were thousands of "ebooks" available before household internet. Most BBS sites had a few, just about all of them had "1500_SF_books.zip" or the like.

It was a tremendous PITA to read them on even SVGA monitors.

It was much more genre-specific back then as well – almost entirely SF&F, no bored housewife wanted to sit in front of a computer all day reading the latest "romance" novel.

Then along came the Kindle. Which spurred many new formats for eBooks. So that now I read them on an old 7" tablet. Almost exclusively – why buy a hard copy to fill up shelves? My "old" library was about 2,000 hardcovers and three times that many paperbacks. Ate an entire room. My "library" is roughly fifty times that size now and fits on a drive smaller than a deck of cards.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Re:

I hate reading fiction on a standard computer screen, always have. My first Kindle was the 3rd gen, I believe (the one with a full keyboard), and I’ve never looked back. The tipping point for me was being in an airport and paying over the odds for a new book to read on my return flight. Then choosing one that barely interested me because I found the choice rather lacking, and realising I could have been carrying every book I actually wanted to read with less weight and space.

I do still own physical books, but I got rid of most of the non-hardback or particularly valuable books when I moved to a different country and have rarely felt the urge to buy a physical paperback since (the only books I’ve bought in recent years are larger art or reference books).

Bamboo Harvester (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Re:

Last book I read on-screen was a Terry Pratchett novel. Because books have release windows too – it came out in the UK two years before it was slated for US release.

When it finally came out in the US, I bought a copy – mainly because it was such a PITA reading it on-screen that I couldn’t enjoy it.

"Airport Books" is a genre in itself – based on how flashy the publisher can make the cover to catch the eye.

Most of the hard copy books I still own are old reference and text books. If you stumble across a Physics or Chem text from the fifties, give it a read. Even if you don’t have much background in either field, you’ll spot a LOT of things that have been proven WRONG since the book was published.

And you’re not likely to find "pirate" editions of such.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Re:

""Airport Books" is a genre in itself – based on how flashy the publisher can make the cover to catch the eye."

Yes, and I rather suffered as a result as I tend to judge a book’s interest based on what’s on the back rather than the front 😉 Had I just been looking for the prettiest picture to choose my purchase, I probably wouldn’t have been so disappointed in the available selection.

"And you’re not likely to find "pirate" editions of such."

Generally speaking, things that are not currently popular are a lot less likely to get pirated than those that are. If you look at, say, the list of the most pirated movies and compare them to the current box office, they will generally line up. If there’s no demand for something, people usually won’t bother with making it available.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Re:

Actually the kindle cam along at about the time that the Internet matured itself into a medium suitable for distribution. 15 years prior we are talking about dial up, and overnight downloads for a complete book. It like YouTube came along when it did,because broadband had become widespread, and capable of streaming video.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Re:

I doubt it was download speeds that was the main factor – the average eBook is about the same size as an MP3, if not smaller and iTunes was definitely a big thing 15 years ago. Definitely not an overnight download requirement.

What changed was the reading technology, which was still in relative infancy 15 years ago. The Kindle was the first mass market ereader to offer the right tech at the right price backed by a comprehensive library, which is why it took off when it did.

James Burkhardt (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Re:

Convenience.

As TechDirt notes repeatedly, the best way to fight piracy is a combination of price and convenience.

Before the Kindle, ebooks were a niche market due to a number of factors. Tablets that did exist were backlit, which were hard to read outside and caused eyestrain and made sleeping harder. They were expensive. As were the books, priced at the same level as dead tree counterparts. In sum, they were inconvenient and expensive, eliminating a lot of the value of ebooks had over paper.

The original kindle took off because of timing. The non-backlit screen replicated the paper book experience, which helped transition paper fans. It was inexpensive, relatively. Amazon started a ebook-price fixing scheme at the same time, bringing down ebook prices. The changes Kindle made allowed the convenience of e-books to outshine the market’s resistence to change. It came out right as eThings 2.0 mania was in full force with smartphones becoming common.

It wasn’t the publishers. It was Amazon disrupting the market just enough for things to take off. And it nearly didn’t. If I remember correctly, it took a partnership with Barnes & Noble to get it physically in peoples hands for them to really recognize the value.

Interesting note there. At the time Borders was seen as the dominant bookstore. It was growing explosively. But Borders refused to partner with Amazon, whom they saw as competition, for good reason. But Borders was not the book store chain that survived. By Embracing Amazon and their own place in the market, Barnes and Noble has managed to survive in the online marketplace era.

Scary Devil Monastery (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re:

"The publishers, the "gatekeepers of culture and opinion", (thanks to copyright law and monopoly practices: buy or destroy the competition) did not have a grip on the Internet like they have in the traditional media. That’s why copyright law has to be extended and the Internet has to be brought under control."

The problem here being that Perry Barlow’s cyberspace manifesto still applies in practice. The only "control" you can bring to the internet is that of pulling the plug. And that is especially true when the citizenry as a whole has a vested interest in not letting that plug be pulled.

History isn’t short of desperate Red Flag Acts, the most renowned one to date probably being either the British Tea Tax on the american colonies or the Common Salt Tax in India.

nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

Even if you own the content you plan to upload, if you upload it to a platform that you do not own, that content is still third party content.

No, that’s second party content (or first party, depending on the perspective). The platform is one party, and you are the other one. There is no third party. The problem is, the platform cannot tell the difference between original content and third party content, so in an Article 13 world they would have to assume it’s third party and filter it.

James Burkhardt (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re:

In General, the convention in content distribution

Content produced by the distributor or its subsidiaries would be ‘First Party’ content. (Mircosoft Studios is a First party XBOX developer)

Content produced for the distributor in a contractually exclusive arrangement while financially independent would be ‘Second Party’ content. (Colloquial, Really only in use for video games and internet distributed content)

Content produced by entities is ‘Third party content’.

USG is, by this standard, almost always "Third Party Content". In relation to YouTube as a distributor, YouTube would exercise publication control over First or Second party content, and therefore is not just a host of the content, but the publisher which changes the whole discussion over responsibilities. Third Party Content on the other hand is not published by the Third Party on YouTube, but YouTube does not have the publication control it does over first or second party content.

James Burkhardt (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Re:

That is indeed where the labels of First and Third Party content come from, the perspective of the consumer interacting with the content medium, as opposed to the consumer interacting with the content. That analysis can work to understand the meaning of those two terms but "second party content", which is a consumer invented hybrid label.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: The Golden Era of the Gatekeeper

shake the foundation of those who relied on UGC and third-party content as their (now obsolete) business model.

Yep. Article 13 will basically prevent users from ever acting as creators, and also prevent third parties acting as creators. Only network owners will be able to safely upload their own directly-commissioned content that they directly own the copyright to.

The intent, as you correctly point out, is to turn the internet into a broadcast medium.
That’s pretty much what we’re complaining about.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re: The sky is faaalliiiing!

(Stupid accidental submit click)

Anyway, it’s criticising the terrible arguments in the "manifesto" of how the various gatekeeper industries in music, tv, etc are "unfairly" maligned,

"The criticism we have is merely of the myths and fighting talk, which are poisoning the current debate: A free internet at no charge, publishers as evil exploiters, authors ripped off by collecting societies, the enforcement of copyright as
censorship."

when all they want to do is "help" artists, by mandating that they get to take a cut instead of artists being able to directly market their work to their customers.

" Platforms should pay creatives fair and reasonable remuneration by obtaining licences for the global repertoire. If they have such flat-rate licences from collecting societies, they do not need to filter content."

Translated: "Won’t somebody think of the poor middlemen! They have families to feed, private jets to fuel, cocaine habits to feed! If they’re not allowed to parasitise artists, through a legally enforced process of "representation", how will they ever make ends meet!?!?"

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Damned if you do, damned if you don't

If you want to be charitable, the "regulation" and "certainty" about filters is about the "requirement" that online services also implement an appeal/redress mechanism for mistaken takedowns.

If that is what they mean then that’s a rich bit of trying to have it both ways, first holding platforms liable for user submitted content such that(assuming they continue to allow it at all) they are heavily incentivized into pulling anything even remotely questionable, and then hitting the platforms again in having to add a system to address takedowns, of which they have ensured there will be many.

Jay Lee Locke-Herupp says:

Your cesspit has turned into Toxic Waste Dump.

As anyone but the totally biased fanboys see.

Anyhoo, I’m betting that within 30 hours you’ll be announcing lost this one too.

However, with the lack of substance here and the usual smoke screens paid for by easily-gotten billions, I’m going to bet that this "briar patch" is indeed exactly what Google wants. Whether Masnick knows that is doubtful, but that exact talking point being out is indicative that Google rushed it out to defuse real resistance.

However, it’s too well-covered and too complex to dig into, and why should any American care if and how Europe destroys itself? (IF Masnick is right.)

And on other hand, if actually enforces copyright, then it’s another win for me.

Only the pirates fanboys lose — and they won’t for years yet even grasp that they’ve been betrayed.


[subsitute for horiz rule ’cause Techdirt took it away]
(Reminds me that "John Fenderson" defended Google’s spying here and I said he wouldn’t be around to take the blame for it, which turned out accurate for the site, he just decamped.)

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Your cesspit has turned into Toxic Waste Dump.

Just pointing out that when it comes to internet uploads, if it affects Europe, it affects the world. Also, if it passes in Europe, there’s a good chance it’ll be brought to America, with supporters saying it’s important to have same/similar laws Re:IP and the internet.

So yeah, just because it’s Europe doesn’t mean Americans shouldn’t care, too.

N. Citeful says:

Re: Re: Your cesspit has turned into Toxic Waste Dump.

Also, if it passes in Europe, there’s a good chance it’ll be brought to America, with supporters saying it’s important to have same/similar laws Re:IP and the internet.

Oh, I think that too, just as alleged massacre in New Zealand last week somehow has implications for MY 2nd A rights, because the same globalists are behind all. But I bet you don’t even believe in globalists, that’s just a "conspiracy theory".

Jay Lee Locke-Herupp says:

Re: Re: Your Cabbage Law

Mr, Herup, thanks for the on-point commentary on horizontal lines. Obviously a top concern.

First, don’t assume sex. For all you know I’m a bot. And if you were a UK serf (as your use of "favour" twice implied), then mis-gendering is a serious offense.

Anyhoo, yes, it IS a major concern for here. Article 13 is almost certainly on rails, won’t be affected no matter how protested.

Still waiting on your explanation of what Laws TD is breaking. (As you have invoked many times.)

Well, Techdirt hasn’t been exonerated by the lack, as the rabid libs / Dems are now shrieking about Trump. The investigation goes on, TD still under a cloud.

Overall, I give you a snark rating of 0.7, Timmy. You’re just not up to it, only provide me hooks for far better. For instance, the "Cabbage Law" bit? It’s stupid for start and no one understands that if not long time reader! (New readers should know that Timothy Geigner aka "Dark Helmet" does the "Gary" and "Scary Devil Monastery" astro-turfing.)

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

For all you know I’m a bot.

A bot would be better than you at writing a coherent argument.

Article 13 is almost certainly on rails, won’t be affected no matter how protested.

Pretty sure clowns like you said the same thing about SOPA/PIPA. How did that turn out, again?

Techdirt hasn’t been exonerated

And if you could name what law(s) Techdirt is charged with breaking, this statement might mean something.

New readers should know that Timothy Geigner aka "Dark Helmet" does the "Gary" and "Scary Devil Monastery" astro-turfing.

Prove it.

Jay Lee Locke-Herupp says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Techdirt has written that SOPA/PIPA put in place by stealth.

Pretty sure clowns like you said the same thing about SOPA/PIPA. How did that turn out, again?

It’s in place and alternatives are going up all the time.

First, thanks for the mere "clown" pejorative. Several steps up from your usual vileness.

Second, so what if wrong on a prediction? It’s still the right MORAL case: you pirates deserve to be jailed for your thefts of content.

Prove [that Geigner astro-turfs here].

That’s obvious to anyone who’ll read through their comment histories. You cannot explain that "Scary Devil Monastery" made one comment and then was dormant for over five years, then took off at 400 per year rate. — Similarly "Gary" took off from 6 a year, but are now among the most prolific here. It’s a conclusion but firm. — And this isn’t a court of law, it’s teh internets where the savvy can see the obvious and they stay away by the millions from this site.

Jay Lee Locke-Herupp says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Techdirt has written that SOPA/PIPA put in place by

Every post of yours is an excellent argument against the position you hold. It’s fascinating.

Thanks!

For all you know I’m on your side, then?

But every post of yours shows how empty "your" side is, mere ad hom, no substance. It’s certain then, that my views, consistent and actual argument will win.

Jay Lee Locke-Herupp says:

Re: Re: Re:4 "you pirates deserve to be jailed for your thefts of content

How hard you hold onto that position if it meant you would go to jail for violating a copyright by accident?

I’m a hard bot. But you are as always taking off with a couple words and paraphrasing to falsify an extreme, which is LYING. STOP THAT. Stick to what I write.

After all, watching an unauthorized upload of a movie clip or a song on YouTube is technically violating someone’s copyright…

As practical matter, prosecutors (actual gov’t not civil) should go after hosts: Pirate Bay, MEGA, the many streamers, whatever others are gaining money off content they don’t make.

Read Torrent Freak of late, that’s on-going, though far too sparse.

Oh, and TOPIC, Article 13? BIG INCREASE. Seems that many legislators agree with me. Odd, isn’t it?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

you are as always taking off with a couple words and paraphrasing to falsify an extreme

I quoted you directly; the context is available in your post. And by the by, you were the one who went “extreme” by saying — and I quote — “you pirates deserve to be jailed for your thefts of content”. Since you believe copyright infringement is theft (an opinion you have made abundantly clear over the years), and you believe “pirates deserve to be jailed for your thefts of content”, the logical conclusion to be drawn from those propositions is that you believe anyone who infringes upon copyright — i.e., commits “theft of content” — should go to jail. The question remains: How hard would you hold onto that belief if you were the one being sent to jail over an accidental act of what you believe is “theft”?

As practical matter, prosecutors (actual gov’t not civil) should go after hosts: Pirate Bay, MEGA, the many streamers, whatever others are gaining money off content they don’t make.

And what of the people who “pirate” but do not make money from said infringement? They are still “pirates”, and as you said, “pirates deserve to be jailed for your thefts of content”.

Jay Lee Locke-Herupp says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Techdirt has written that SOPA/PIPA put in place by

Repeat after me: Correlation is not causation

Okay. "Correlation is not causation." I even added a period for you.

But it’s irrelevant.

Now, you try "Evidence requires an explanation." — And then try to supply an actual explanation for the DOZENS of "accounts" with gaps of FIVE YEARS and up, other than the obvious: astro-turfing.

You have no explanation, just try diverting with a canned phrase.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

try to supply an actual explanation for the DOZENS of "accounts" with gaps of FIVE YEARS and up

Not everyone hangs out here all day because they have nothing better to do. And not everyone who reads/comments on this blog does so on a regular basis. I was laid up in the hospital for over a week not too long ago and had no access to my Techdirt account as a result; does that gap in my commenting history make me a sockpuppet?

Matthew Cline (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Techdirt has written that SOPA/PIPA put in place by stea

That’s obvious to anyone who’ll read through their comment histories. You cannot explain that "Scary Devil Monastery" made one comment and then was dormant for over five years, then took off at 400 per year rate. — Similarly "Gary" took off from 6 a year, but are now among the most prolific here. It’s a conclusion but firm.

Alternate explanation: user signs up for an account to leave a comment on a single article because of interest in that topic. Other articles on TD at the time were of no interest to them, so they don’t hang around to read it every day; just a drive by commenter who bothered to make an account. Years later, another article that interests them on TD. However, this time there’s other articles on the site which interest them, which gets to to check TD every day for new articles, and thus they become a regular.

Jay Lee Locke-Herupp says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Your Cabbage Law

They should also know that you constantly make such baseless accusations without offering a shred of proof.

Not baseless. The evidence is available to every reader in their histories. "Gary" and "Scary Devil Monastery" took off from 6 per year and 5 year GAP respectively, to both over 400 per year rate now. That’s OBVIOUS astro-turfing.

New readers should know that "PaulT" has admitted gets paid to sit online and astro-turf this site — in effect, since only busy every half hour. He’s spent literally a work-year making comments here.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Your Cabbage Law

"That’s OBVIOUS astro-turfing."

No, it’s a thing that has a number of different explanations, you’ve just chosen the one that fits your narrative. Do you have any actual proof of what you’re claiming, or do people need to take the word of a man who still hasn’t worked out that a spam filter is not operated by a human being?

"New readers should know that "PaulT" has admitted gets paid to sit online and astro-turf this site "

No, I’ve admitted to posting my opinion here while I’m in the office, since my job often has short spaces of waiting for things and I sometime choose to fill that time discussing things here.

Lying about what I actually do and say won’t win you brownie points. It just makes the intelligent reader wonder who is paying you and to wonder if they know they’re getting such poor value for money.

Gary (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Your Cabbage Law

Gee Mr. Mid-West values. I didn’t know "Dishonesty" was a core of the mid-west.

The crux of your fantasy is that I make more posts than I used to. Yup, I do. There ya go. However, this only proves that you clearly don’t understand what the word "Proof" means. It doesn’t show a connection to Tim, or really anything at all. I’m not even going to bother offer an explanation – why would an uptick in posting even be suspicious? And why do you rule all the many mundane reasons in favor of your conspiracy?

And yet, you do frame it as a conspiracy – against You.

Still waiting to hear the "Law" TD is breaking when they downvote your sorry bot butt. Please cite!

Your love of global censorship is astounding. Copyright is just corporate censorship. The dissonance is astounding.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3 And you did it for free

Bro you admitted to spending a decade here and managed to change; hold on let me pull out my list of the things you bragged about the other day.

1) line breaks (which is probably just user error)

2) The length of titles

3) Brought attention to an outdated page

Ten years bro

Ten years

Ten

Years

Of

Your

Life

Bro

TFG says:

Re: Re: Re: Your Cabbage Law

Hello Mr. Herup. I would like to thank you for support of the protests of Article 13. Your posts are exceedingly useful examples of why this particular piece of legislation should not pass, as they serve as a demonstration of the excellent quality and logic that is used in support of them.

I tip my hat to you for all the work you have done to convince people that this legislation is morally bankrupt and will serve none of the purposes that it is claimed to serve by its supporters. I have little doubt that you, and your compatriots, have convinced many readers that these articles, and copyright in general, are too dangerous to be allowed to exist.

Well done, sir.

Jay Lee Locke-Herupp says:

Re: Re: Your cesspit has turned into Toxic Waste Dump.

If it’s well-covered, perhaps you could provide links to the coverage for us so we can judge for ourselves how complex it is.

I should have written "well-hidden", but you’ll find something to object there too.

And since you’re evidently resolved to not see / find what’s obvious, you won’t.

Mason Wheeler (profile) says:

Also, what’s with the Orwellian "there is no freedom without rules" line in there?

That’s not Orwellian at all, really. Their application of it to this specific scenario is pretty atrocious, but the statement that "there is no freedom without rules! Otherwise, only the strongest will prevail" is right on the money. What they’re describing is the principle of the rule of law, where placing restrictions on the use of various kinds of power and force allows civilization and freedom to flourish at higher levels.

I’ve heard the analogy made to flying a kite. At first glance, you might think that the kite’s string is keeping it down, which is technically true. It won’t fly any higher than the length of string permits. But at the same time, the tension on the string is also what is holding it up, and if you cut the string, it will be at the mercy of the wind, with no restrictions to keep it stable, and immediately come crashing down.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

A somewhat similar analogy would be to speech, believe it or not: Restrictions on what and where someone can say certain things — only by private entities and not by the government, naturally — can give people whose voices would normally be marginalized or unheard the ability to speak freely. A platform that bans anti-gay speech, for example, can give gay people more freedom to talk about their life experiences without having their voices drowned out by a bunch of homophobic bullshit. (Incidentally, this is the original idea behind the concept of “safe spaces”.)

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Yet Section 230 chills speech by making those with unpopular opinions defenseless against reputation-ruining defamation, as it did with female victims of revenge porn, for example.

If straight stereotype gay men the way women stereotype straight men, it wouldn’t be called "homophobia." So basically a guy who calls out a male friend who happens to be gay and preying on him a predator, he’s the villain. Got it.

What do women call straight men who make similar advances?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Section 230 chills speech by making those with unpopular opinions defenseless against reputation-ruining defamation

Section 230 protects platforms from legal liability if a third party posts illegal content without the foreknowledge and direct aid of that platform’s owners/operators. The liability for defamation remains where it should: upon the people who made the defamatory comments and those who published said comments despite either knowing or having a good idea that those comments were defamatory. If people dunk on you because of your unpopular opinion, that is not defamation — that is people telling you that, in their opinion, your opinion makes you an asshole.

If straight stereotype gay men the way women stereotype straight men, it wouldn’t be called "homophobia."

I hate to break it to you, but homophobic straight men already stereotype gay men as predators. And that does not even get into the bullshit that is the “gay panic” defense.

basically a guy who calls out a male friend who happens to be gay and preying on him a predator, he’s the villain

It is one thing if a gay guy flirts with a straight guy and leaves the straight guy alone after being told the guy is straight. It is another thing if a gay guy flirts with a straight guy and continues to pursue the straight guy after being told the guy is straight. The first situation is an honest mistake; the second situation is predatory behavior. But in all likelihood, a homophobic straight man is likely to think of both situations as predatory behavior.

What do women call straight men who make similar advances?

Creeps, assholes, and incels.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re:

So straight men should call gays who hit on them the same names.

"Incel" is an interesting insult. Isn’t that taunting someone for their lack of privilege? How many times does some woman’s boyfriend or husband (not an incel) wind up shooting up her workplace and killing innocents? Do we taunt fat or ugly women (or old women) because they’ll never be loved? Do we wave money and food in front of the starving and laugh at them? People are awfully proud of their cruelty at times.

By immunizing platforms, Section 230 allows people to be drowned out by harassment, defamation, etc. just like the lack of speech controls (which Section 230 effectively is) does the same as you claim above. It also allows for disinformation to spread (anti-vaxxer propaganda is another example), and since sites can’t be sued for false advertising, their sponsors can’t really be trusted.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Re:

A notice-and-takedown scheme would work. Search engines shouldn’t be allowed to permanently spread defamation that began in some isolated corner of the internet. Female victims of revenge porn have been called into their HR departments to "answer" to something a malicious ex posted about them. Too bad the HR people didn’t get fired.

It really is people’s fault for believing what they read online, but too many do, trusting Google as if it were a vetted background check when it’s more like a bathroom wall (for which the bar owner would be liable btw).

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

A notice-and-takedown scheme would work.

A notice-and-takedown scheme would chill speech by making it possible for the malicious and vindictive to file a takedown notice against someone they dislike over what would otherwise be legally protected speech. If such a system were designed in a manner similar to the DMCA takedown system, the “guilty party” (as you would call them in this example) would have to file a full counternotice and pray they do not get sued. Who would dare to post speech on a third-party platform if they knew they stood a chance of getting censored/sued by some pissed-off dumbass with a grudge?

Search engines shouldn’t be allowed to permanently spread defamation that began in some isolated corner of the internet.

Search engines do not publish information — they aggregate where information is found and point people to those locations based on relevance, popularity, and other factors. Google should not be held legally liable for defamation if some jackoff on Twitter defames you and Google’s search engine indexes the defamatory tweet.

Female victims of revenge porn have been called into their HR departments to "answer" to something a malicious ex posted about them.

Assuming this little anecdote is true: That sucks for them, but suing people who had absolutely nothing to do with the uploading of said revenge porn will not fix the problem.

It really is people’s fault for believing what they read online, but too many do, trusting Google as if it were a vetted background check when it’s more like a bathroom wall

If it is a person’s fault for believing what they read online, what makes Google liable for their gullibility?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Because, absent 230, Google would be a distributor of defamatory content.

Please explain how the Google search engine is anything more than a content aggregator.

They are the ones doing the harm by spreading the lies

Please explain how Google is the publisher of defamatory content that was published by, and is hosted on, a third-party site that the Google search engine happened to index.

just like when links to revenge porn sites show up

Please explain how Google should be held liable for revenge porn hosted on a third-party site if no one at Google actively solicited/created/published/promoted/directly aided the publication or promotion of said revenge porn.

James Burkhardt (profile) says:

Re: Re:

I’d say the issue with the phrase is the inherent appeal to authority present in the argument. That the Rule of Law is beneficial is not being debated here. The issue is that the "manifesto" appeals to the need to for law in general to explain why Article 13 is necessary. I don’t think it quite begs the question, but it comes close.

James Burkhardt (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

Do remember that for all the claims of the Trolls, Mike is generally Anti-Regulation. Support for net neutrality only came from over a decade of market abuse, and Tom Wheeler expressing a clear, concise set of light touch rules that if anything didn’t go far enough.

Saying "some rules are good therefore more rules" is going to be seen as a ridiculous appeal to authority, particularly when the rest of the justification lacks any relation to truth and history. Given to totality of the manifesto, the statement certainly seems Orwellian, in context.

Out of context, it certainly seems to make sense. "Some rules are good" isn’t Orwellian. "Rules are good", by contrast, starts taking an authoritarian air. "Rules are good, therefore more rules is gooder" is most certainly Authoritarian. Combined with a facts optional explanation of those new rules and their likely effects, it gets Orwellian.

James Burkhardt (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re:

To extend the Kite metaphor:

A string is necessary for the kite to function. But adding a second string is only helpful if you work to make sure the strings are balanced. If they are, you get a far more controlled kite, capable of things the single string kite could never do. If they are not balanced, the kite won’t fly again.

And then if you add a Third string? At best, it doesn’t help, even balanced, because you can’t effectively control that third string.

The article defends adding a second string to the internet kite, but doesn’t discuss how to balance the first string to keep the kite in the air.

Thud says:

Re: Another arrogant BLUE BOY paying for attention.

For those new to the site, "blue" and "out_of_the_blue" refer to those arrogant commentors who pay for the privilege of putting their deathless wit in Techdirt’s unique "First Word" and "Last Word", the highlighting done by hyper-links (hence the name "out of the blue"), usually large and always annoying. You see those only rarely because reviled.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

For those with an ounce of intelligence, “blue” and “out_of_the_blue” refer to a longtime troll who used to post with the name “out_of_the_blue”, but no longer does so because he foolishly believes posting anonymously makes spotting his trollish posts nigh-impossible to spot. You see his posts only rarely because everyone flags his dumb bullshit on sight.

N. Citeful says:

Tell me again why I should fear "upload filters" instead of...

the everyday de facto my mere bits of text being censored, already. On a discussion site that solicits public input with plain HTML and touts "free speech".

Sheesh.

And after your panting and shrieking, WHAT are you going to do tomorrow night if passed? (And again, I’m not exercised and cannot lose by what happens in Europe, so don’t bother to nag me now or later if doesn’t pass!)

Anonymous Coward says:

I imagine this, if passed, will be used for censoring ones critics.
Do they have the "hot news" silliness in the EU? I can see how some geniuses will claim this copyright on the stories of the day thus preventing anyone from posting anything critical … until tomorrow. How will they stop follow up reporting on the hot news items which may be critical of them? Poor babies.

techflaws (profile) says:

Helga Trüpel

Oh, look, the manifesto’s footer shows a copyright by Helga Trüpel. Not CDU but almost as bad as Axel Voss when it comes to misrepresenting the current state of affairs and articles 11 + 13. You just need to listen to Sascha Lobo’s interwiew with her:

https://soundcloud.com/user-728223693/angela-merkels-digitalpolitik-witze-ubers-eigene-versagen

Anonymous Coward says:

there is one good-ish thing…if the MEP’s do vote it through, I heard on the grapevine that wikipedia will LITERALLY out the ones who vote yes on their wiki pages, saying who voted yes or no (the only exception is people who abstain from the vote or are otherwise absent)

Anyone voting yes this close to their election might as well retire as they will have commited political suicide and if we get enough people voted in who DO get the internet, there is the small chance they’ll try to repeal article 13.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Step up or get out

there is one good-ish thing…if the MEP’s do vote it through, I heard on the grapevine that wikipedia will LITERALLY out the ones who vote yes on their wiki pages, saying who voted yes or no (the only exception is people who abstain from the vote or are otherwise absent)

Honestly on something this important unless they’ve got a really damn impressive excuse(like ‘had to go to the hospital for themselves or a family member’-level of serious) those abstaining should be lumped right in with those voting for it. Yeah they’re not voting directly to screw the public over, but they are choosing to stand by while others attempt to do so, and ‘representatives’ like that the public can do without.

Anonymous Coward says:

Wait, article 13 will force Google and Facebook to allow pictures of naked bodies?
"Google and Facebook are already using filter algorithms. They filter not only – as intended – illegal content (e.g. pornographic or terrorist content), but also completely legal content (e.g. photos of naked bodies)."
Now we know why people support article 13.

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